[QUESTION] Deleted topic

[Amaroth]

Yesterday I started a topic and I found out it was deleted (and wasn't noticed that my topic was deleted, by who or for what reason). I would like to know who and why deleted that topic.

[schlumpf]

The only topic deleted yesterday was deleted by Steff. You may want to contact him if he didn't provide a reason.

[Amaroth]

Thanks schlumpf.

[Amaroth]

So, we are not supposed to offer or take payed jobs and/or link to other forums. At least according to Steff. Well, I suppose rules pply to all devs, not just to me (even to those who were doing exactly the same for last months and years over and over), so I thought you would just like to know wth is going on here on this currently kinda butthurt and spineless forum, where probably no longer is important what members want to do, but what owner allows them to present here.

With all respect to Steff, this is not anything I like to see or anything I would like to just keep to myself.


If I posted my whole post here and added just a link to it on MC-Net, noone would fucking care. But because I placed main post on MC-Net and placed here just a disclaimer and link, my post is apparently supposed to be deleted, because Steff says: "becaus i dont like work for pay posts and delete them if i see them. also we are no link board.". No Steff, you are just butthurt that I chose Modcraft for my particular project as "just a secondary forum" and hiding this behind your excuse is rather pathetic when I see how many links to some other forums are around or how many payed positions are proposed here (dozens). Once again, its pathetic, its lie, spineless butthurt lie and arrogant, ignorant thing you are just doing here, which doesn't help anyone, it just makes things more difficult and complicated. Its putting your own desires in front of desires of the community. And Modcraft is its community, not you. And no matter how long you are here or what have you done. You are not alone here.

[schlumpf]

I  congratulate Steff, Milly or whatever it wants to be smaller now, and Skarn to successfully splitting and fucking over the whole community. Well fucking done.

Steff, get over the fact you don't have the time and capability to do everything alone. Accept help, and realize that people have helped you, a lot. I managed modcraft for a damn long time while you did nothing but be the great master behind the scenes, everyone looks up to and sees as the only responsible person. In the whole thing of Skarn an milly offering help, you never even contacted me.

Skarn, milly, duck you guys. If helping a community to fix the issues is done by splitting it, and private messaging people on the existing one to join your great new community, you succeeded. I know the rules didn't say shit about big messaging people about your new thing. That's fucking common manners.  Hint: it helped fucking nobody. Splitting a group will never lead to a higher truth. The content of your sure is exactly the same. All additional things you have is a gallery for screenshots. Was this worth the drama and negative effects? Oh yeah, and a shoutbox, right. The whole thing didn't advance. People still do they and old shit.


I'm just sick of this. It has helped nobody and destroyed all the community things we had by splitting things up at badly defined borders with 90% of talking behind people's backs and talking shit about them.

Have fun with your community on people half-posting to either sides with there being an ongoing war. I don't want to be part of this anymore. On a side note, the wiki, while mcnet links to it as if it was their own, and steff wanted to integrate it into modcraft, will stay neutral.

If you want a drama free community, start working together and don't try to convince people that your penis is bigger than the other dictator's. It just doesn't help.

</drunk rant>

[Rangorn]

For my part, i don't give a fuck about the fact there are 2 community now, I still browse Modcraft and help people if i know how to fix their prob, but i'm contributing to MC.net, because the release section is a very good idea and very simple.

Creating a new forum was a good idea i think, Modcraft is old with huge content, but for me, modcraft is "cold"
Skarn and Milly just wanted to revive modding and give him a new identity.

Btw, you don't have to choose between the 2 forums, it's not Fallout New vegas.

[Milly]

Well, half is already discussed a thousand times so I'll keep it short. There are no advertising links being sent out in private messages by me. Steff talked to me about the situation and even showed me the messages in question. They were made by Skarn and were mostly links to his patches. Only four messages in total. Anyway...

There's a lot more features on our site than the ones you mention schlumpf and you're not going to see them without an open mind. The wiki link isn't to imply that we own the wiki, sorry if you took that the wrong way. But the wiki has always needed a clearly accessible link because half of people who start modding don't even know it exists, then they ask stupid questions. :

Also, it really isn't a dick fight between dictators. I don't care what people do on my site as long as it's not extremely illegal like CP or something. I'm an anarchist, and my maturity on a scale from 1-100 is 69. I just... Don't.... Care.

And there was even a 5th or 6th or millionth attempt at working with Steff just the other week. We had a heated argument about the sites over Skype and it seemed to end on a friendly note. I was gonna help out with Maruum because I think it's an interesting world and a large community project like that is healthy for modding.

Now he is ignoring me again. Everyone is ignoring everyone. There is some personal problems all over the place. I don't care that you personally hate me schlumpf, and I sure as heck don't care what slander MountanLion is bound to spew at me. All I care about is WoW Modding and you can keep calling me a liar, I don't care if you believe me. I couldn't give less of of a fuck about this drama fest anymore. There's so many more important things going on in my life right now. Why people can't just switch to a better site, and quit whining about it is beyond my comprehension.

The website is totally FREE and Steff & schlumpf are welcome to take their rightful spots as admins on my site. You can even have your FTP access, it's not like I want to ruin everything about you and all the things you've worked towards. Ascathos, Mr. DK, and Valkryst can have moderator. People can receive back their earned ranks. Posts can transfer. We could even make a Modcraft theme for the new forum so people can have that old-timey feel. We could all join together and WoW modding could have its renaissance. But Steff says no. And I'm done asking him. Why should I care anymore? I don't. Okay, bye now.

Actually, side-note: I'm genuinely sorry that your contribution here was undermined, schlumpf. A big reason the community may be split in some way is because people feel loyal to Steff. Feel free to disagree.

[spik96]

Without unity, history repeats itself again and again.
In the current situation, one day in many years, if there is still activity of course, maybe there will be fights inside MC-Net between Milly & Skarn, or a new challenger will come and things will go shit, or something else... That's just what people always f*cking do.
I joined 2 years ago. I know about Steff only for some months, before that I thought schlumpf was the big administrator so I get the frustration that is in the air. I'm glad the Wiki stays neutral, at least. The gathering of knowledge must always be safe of lower conflicts.

I love different things in both Modcraft and MC.net. I like them, I do not think being a fanatic for one or the other.

Maybe it would have been better to publish all the suggestions that eventually lead to creating MC.Net on the forum. I may be completely wrong, but the only public debate I have seen about Modcraft evolution was about ranks.

With more suggestions and a public support from community members, maybe Modcraft could have evolved better : Probably not everything would have been accepted (example : the ranks looked like dividing), but think about it : if only 75% of MC.net features had been added to Modcraft, would have this new site existed ?

I believe the best would be to evolve Modcraft with some features claimed. I'm sure there are features really good on MC.net that Steff would not think bad. Some will be discussed, like ranks. I suggest to leave that at the moment, and add the other things, leading therefore to a good lightened compromise.

Right now, there is an opportunity. Like every compromise it would be a two side effort : one side accepting some changes and the other side accepting that not every desired change is going to be implemented.

Note : what I'm suggesting here does not imply a cancelling of MC.net whatsoever, I'm just suggesting Modcraft should inspire itself from a couple features of MC.net (not all) to heal the schism. I already seen scenarios like these and it may lead in healthy concurrency or differentiation with a website more specialized than the other.

[Skarn]

Okay, I see your point but I don't really see anything we have not discussed in that old thread. But I will explain what I think anyway.

1. Destroying Modcraft or splitting the communtiy was never a purpose of this website project. The purpose was to give a new rise to WoW modding. As Milly (Elrena) said many times, we offered Steff help, he rejected. We offered Steff merging to a ready-to-use new community, he raged. So, splitting the community was actually never a thing we wanted to do. And there is even a question if we did it just because we got pretty big activity on our website, I can more or less say that quite a decent number of people support or at least like our idea. Also right now it is Modcraft who is trying to split the community. Steff is doing his best for it to happen by prohibiting links to other boards and payed jobs on the board. Seriously? Here on MC-Net we care about what people do and their work and it is no problem if someone links Mocraft, Ac-Web, Ownedcore or his own blog/website. No problem at all.

2. Speaking about my private messages. Let's clear that out once and forever. I sent the message containing a link to MC-Net release section with my model resource to 5 people as they requested this patch long ago. I can't double my work both on MC-Net and Mocraft, so I did send this one. Also it is called "Private Messages" and reading other people's private messages is a fucking huge violation of "common manners". They are called private for a reason.

3. The wiki. Milly has said enough but I will add that we added a link to the wiki because it is much easier for people to click one huge button in the upper menu instead of linking that wiki page shitloads of times as it is not even link on Modcraft. We respect everyone who worked on the wiki and never claim anything as our "own". We just provide convinience for users because this is the purpose of a community, not stupid ownership politics.

4. Advantages of our site. You already named only two of them when you forgot a possibility to start your own project page, project promotion banner and whatnot. Thanks for giving an opinion about the mobile version, I am aware about the problem there.

Also, nothing really happen the last three years to improve Modcraft. I have only seen shoutbox removal, fucking up ranks and so on. Only some reductions and degrading features. No one did a shit to save this community, so the activity it had in 2012 can't even be compared to the current one. Activity is what makes a community to produce new things and we seem to be getting it. This picture represents everything I think, thanks to its author.


[attachment=0:3uaihq2u]Do Stuff.jpg[/attachment:3uaihq2u]

Spik96, why did you think me and Milly are going to have a fight? It is just a really weird assumption.

[spik96]

Spik96, why did you think me and Milly are going to have a fight? It is just a really weird assumption.

In long term (I'm speaking of years) it is possible to see new instabilities, that was just an example, sorry ^^". I could have picked any other pseudos, I do not know how to express that precisely in English, but what I mean is that if not plan "What happens to Modcraft when there is a fight ?" has been set then maybe no "What happens to MC.net when there is a fight ?" plan exists neither, same for futures sites etc. and the community could be doomed to divide itself again and again across time. I just fear what we see here is a really common problem on Internet !

Note : That picture always makes me laugh x)

[Amaroth]

[paragraph:1ko44p3g]"Btw, you don't have to choose between the 2 forums, it's not Fallout New vegas."

No, we didn't have, until now. Now we have to. You see, MC-Net offers for me much better tools for formating text, it also shows when tutorial was updated and also has great features for galleries. Its far, far more simple for me to post my projects and tutorials there, while posting them here is huge pain, because I need to upload all my screenshots to external media pages (which tend to not function properly or delete screenshots after some period of time) and place just links to them here. I also like that I can write a comment about every screenshot in MC-Net gallery - its just perfect for presenting projects. And presented projects can both inspire and encourage others to do something similiar or even better. I don't want to write and post all my stuff to both sites, because copy-pasting and remaking formating is just a huge pain and work I don't want to do. And, once again, I hate Modcraft's formating, writing [ ] everywhere (or suffering clicking and being sent to top of page and text all the time) - I just want classic forum text editor which fucking WORKS.

I can post all my stuff on MC-Net and place also links to it here, with some commentary and discussion related to that. Or I can just post it all just on MC-Net, because Steff apparently wants to prevent me from linking to MC-Net pages. Its utterly pointless Steff, have you lost your mind? This is your part of responsibility for splitting 2 pages - that you actually make people to decide where they want to be and where they want to post their stuff, and in your arrogance expect that Modcraft will be chosen. It won't, not by everyone. And it doesn't help anyone, because people, who visit only Modcraft can't acces things posted on MC-Net, not from here, thanks to your decision. It. Makes. Things. Worse. And. Harder. Nothing more, and nothing less.

"Maybe it would have been better to publish all the suggestions that eventually lead to creating MC.Net on the forum. I may be completely wrong, but the only public debate I have seen about Modcraft evolution was about ranks."

I believe that all if not most of things were said already, in a few topics, sometimes as an OT. And if not, they really were said and even repeated a few times after MC-Net appeared. The problem is that Steff apparently ignores quite damn a lot of suggestions. Or doesn't want to make those things. I don't care if its arrogance again, or just laziness. It definitely is something what justifies fact that someone has started a new site to make things he wanted real, because Steff wasn't able to - apparently for 3, 3 fucking years.


While I love everything what could exist only thanks to Modcraft, I can't, and ever won't blame Skarn or Milly for what they have done. They wanted ranks, shoutbox, galleries (and very good galleries indeed), reputation, modern theme, better and international domain, release section for tools, tutorial section for tutorials, and when I say sections, I really mean SECTIONS and post types, not what is here. They wanted to have site which functions and is developing itself as users need and expect it of it. And you know what? They made such site, unlike Steff, who is just ignoring suggestions, replying to messages after even a few days (if he ever replies), who does nearly nothing and still expects results for that nothing (nothing about Modcraft rustyness, your work on Neo surely is very welcomed and appreaciated), just because of his history. Your history might be great Steff, but it won't save this site as its getting more and more outdated and as it is so confusing and more importantly - so hard and pain to use, because of reasons I have highlighted in this post. Because history is for archives and for being forgiven by most. Present acts are what really matter.[/paragraph:1ko44p3g]

[Смердокрыл]

Hey!
 I saw this giant battlefield and decided to write something, because I love giving my opinion when it's not needed.


 Firstly I wanna talk about the design of both websites. It's something not many people notice as an important thing, but trust me it is.
 I believe all websites can be divided into a number of types. For example, there are those programming websites which you stumble upon, looking to fix something on your computer, and can't understand a fucking word there. Also, there are those isolated forgotten websites of really old games or forum rp, where the last post was made in, like, 2012.
 Due to it's "forum-only" pragmatic design and gloomy colours, Modcraft looks like a mix of these two. Yes, it provides a more professional atmosphere, but only for the experienced modders. The newcomers are just scared away.

 Another thing is that the absence of a shoutbox and the complicated-looking private messaging and comment posting all create a feel of tedious waiting every time you ask a question here. That is also bad for beginner modders, because when you just start, you are like a small kid: you have a fucking tonn of new stupid questions every hour and you desperately want them answered.

 From all I described above, it just looks like modcraft is the strictly professional website for masters of the dark arts, while mc.net is a modding community for everyone.


 Secondly, but much more important is that, looking at your argument, I have to agree this is a dick fight between the leaders. Some people (on both sides, I have to remark) imagine the whole thing as a certain project they organise, and forget that it's not about solving social problems but about modding a game!
 Do you know why I made that "Do stuff" picture? Because I had to bump a topic at least two fucking times to get some kind of a  reply! And surprisingly enough, there still is a giant fucking pile of unanswered questions which no-one bothers to look at! Maybe you could go help those people instead of exercising public speeches here? And I'm addressing all speakers, because the goall isn't for someone to have a  better website, but for all of us to have a better modding, and if you truly want to help the community evolve, then actually "Do stuff" instead of posing as a modding Messiah or a keeper of traditions.


Thanks for attention.

[Amaroth]

I am trying to not answer questions when I am not really sure about correct answer Смердокрыл, or when I know there are much more knowledgable people than me for that topic. And I doubt there are many people who do opposite. I think most of questions which aren't answered in more than few days or weeks aren't answered just because noone really is sure what correct answer is. Ofc, some topics are simply missed and need to be bumped. And I definitely agree that shoutbox is great feature for solving such problems, and thats something even I underestimated because when I came to Modcraft I wasn't beginner at all, I was taught from the very beginning to be very self-relying in modding - and I still am. And I suppose people like schlumpf or Steff are the same. We had to figure out a lot of things on our own and we just keep doing so often.

Well, shoutbox being probably underestimated by experienced devs is the first reason why I post here again, the second reason is that I probably owe at least some apologies to Steff after discussion we had on Skype, I may understand reasons for his behavior towards MC-Net (well, still I don't know how true they really are, but I don't really care to be objective here).


Why I don't really care? Because still nothing changes about fact that Modcraft is in current state very bad site for presenting projects, posting tutorials, releases or teaching new and still too confused devs. Thats why I will post my stuff on MC-Net from now. I can at least give you folks here links to it, so we can share content between sites. Or I can't, and Modcraft's content will be again a little smaller. Thats up to Steff.

[Skarn]

Смердокрыл, there is so much more about modding than just doing it. The modding is stuck now and is slowly getting better. We need more attention to the scene, more activity and interested programmers who want to develop tools. There is almost no interested programmers here. Maybe a 2-3 guys. We need to catch up with recent expansions and whatnot. All of that requires sharing ideas, discussions, community work, show-offs, videos and whatnot. The community needs to be _living_ and evolving in order to attract new people or motivate the existing one. Modcraft has almost turned into a help board. I don't see much posts when people post their work and discuss the ways to make it better. There is no creative process happening here, only using what we have had for ages with some rare exceptions when a new tool or a new tutorial appears.

I don't see all that on MC-Net. People post their work, they discuss it. Help questions are also there but they do not make a 80-90% of the website content. As a result, we got people motivated to share their scripts for WoD modding and other things. Ask yourself a question why were not they doing it here?

I used to like Modcraft long ago,  I learned many many things here and from local people in private talks. But it came to a dead end in the end of 2012. Nothing major happened ever since. That's why we do it and I can proudly say that we are doing it pretty well because I receive tons of positive feedback from people.

And here, my friends, comes the most amazing part of my post. You know what I really hate in this world? Double standarts. As we all know, thanks to Amaroth, that we are not allowed to link MC-Net on the board. But I found this:

[attachment=0:3b0qruzf]d463b-clip-33kb.png[/attachment:3b0qruzf]

This is a post made on AC-Web by Steff. He got his link to Modcraft removed from somewhere and he wrote that. Do you believe that this guy keeps his word? I think the obvious answer is "No.". I don't want any war or flame, I am just really amazed how people easily throw away what they said when there is nothing else left to do. And this is not even the first encounter of the same behaviour.
Take care of yourself, guys.

[Steff]

It is funny what strange assessment about this site are out there...

Modcraft is a community. Help is offerd by members. So if you dont get an answer it is the fault of the people running Modcraft?

For me it is not d. fight.

I NEVER got an offer that some one wants to help making the site better. BTW Modcraft is not "old"
We are running an up to date PHPBB board. Only the fact nothing has changed obviously dont mean that we dont work hard for this board. I think alone Schlumpf had houres of fun making the board save agains china spammers.

The bad fact is. I have no time to do tech changes. And yes personal I dont need them. That dont mean that I am not open for ideas and help.

There where also many people offering help in the past. They start and never finished anything.
So my trust and enthusiasm is not the best if people come with big plans instead of just try to make it better step by step.

In the moment Magnus offerd help and work on moving the site to his already existing root server. We also have some time several top level domains to get away from the superparanoid thing.Then we can also activate again the shoutbox. It is not gone becaus we dont wnted it. The hoster just turned it off becaus it created to much traffic .....

[paragraph:1nm2gggw]The newcomers are just scared away.[/paragraph:1nm2gggw]

explanation please. I help everyone I can to get started. Thats why I did the tutorial to get people fast up and running and protect them to avoid the common problems you can run into. I even do often temaviewer session to setup environment for beginners.