A realistic after-Warcraft III server

[sshroud]

While I remain skeptical of how some of the aforementioned systems will work out when implemented I can't dispute your passion for them. Keep in mind that the ability of carrying out some of the fantasies behind these systems are tightly constrained by how the engine works, at least in terms of what feels "satisfying" to do from a gameplay perspective.

Anyways, I wish you the best of luck. I think it will be very interesting to see a prototype implementation of some of these ideas. Might find a couple of people from this website who are interested in seeing how it looks implemented, myself included.

(Oh, and also, take care, most people who take on huge projects (especially ambiguous ones) comes to experience that our mind has a remarkable ability to pull us out of it. Would be a shame if this was to end by you getting burned out.)

[Martinus]

While I remain skeptical...

Ultimatelly it can be reduced and simplified, so not all of those systems may be implemented. I have concluded these from my personal experience and expectations as well as seeing that many people desire the World to be more realistic. Regarding the compatibility of these ideas with, as you have pointed out, the working of the game engine/mechanics, this is what I am not sure to guarantee, as I have mentioned before that I do not see to the working of the game behind of what is visible from player perspective. Therefore I am able to construct these mechanics only from the perspective of those visible workings - and construct them only conceptually, as I do not have actual means to work on them.

I thank you again for your wishes. It might be, but it requires people capable of such a work and I will be looking forward to it. I will start a recruitment and await potential reactions.

[spik96]

You have to ask yourself : to you want a good game or a coherent world ?

There is an important balance between lore consistency and balanced gameplay.
Gameplay is Blizzard's priority. They made some inconsistent changes to lore to promote it, such as : the size of the world, the class system, the whole level system, the instanciated dungeons...

But some strange changes are not gameplay mechanics related : the depiction of Night elves (less "Force of Nature" and more "Standard Wood Elves"), the plots in quests, the mobs/NPCs that makes no sense, the lack of buildings in some towns (Goldshire lol, they could have at least added houses with closed doors)...

What that means : changing the unrelated things allows you to push lore consistency further without damaging the gameplay balance. So, at any time of your work, you have still a fully playable game. You could still add new mechanics later. This way even if you stopped in the middle of the development you would still have a good product.

I am no good modder for World of Warcraft, so I can't help you with the work. That's a good project, but remember you can't simply recruit and let people do the work. You can do it in real life because you pay people, here it's fan work. People can come and go. Even you could come and go, who knows. So you have to think about that. You have to think about how to keep your work online without the certitude of people being working on it tomorrow.

[sshroud]

But some strange changes are not gameplay mechanics related : the depiction of Night elves (less "Force of Nature" and more "Standard Wood Elves"), the plots in quests, the mobs/NPCs that makes no sense, the lack of buildings in some towns (Goldshire lol, they could have at least added houses with closed doors)...

Speaking of which, I'd love to remake the alpha version of Goldshire, but at a higher fidelity (more polys higher, res textures) and less 1999 graphics

Modding WoW is a huge pain in the ass if you want to work with art assets, since having to mess with the binary formats in a hex editor and all those  trivial yet time consuming, tasks ruins the workflow if you've got to create a bunch of assets like items models, game objects, creatures, etc, so I think you, with your tools have a very important role in this.  

This thread makes me realize that I would probably love to see classic WoW in a Warcraft 3 setting, some added RPG elements doesn't hurt, I also remember the RPG part of the game being much stronger back in early vanilla, that requires a certain immersion from the players part as well.

[Martinus]

You have to ask...

I am aware of this conditions. I will work on compilation and a more detailed description of the changes to allow a more exact analysis of the concept.

I understand and also feel sorry for that. I have already reduced the concept onto Model 2 of the World (in one of the previous messages declared that on Model 3, but I will make a correction in the text), which still contains the concept of changing the character of numerous settlements (Goldshire, for example).

Initially I intended to find someone who already has an established server, as my computer will probably not be able to maintain the server. But now it seems to me that I will at least establish a offline server to perform some work. But the most I could ever do was to use in-game commands as a Game Master. I have also looked into a database but was not able to apply changes.

Speaking of which...

Indeed, many settlements can be improved. As I have mentioned higher, even Goldshire is concerned. The houses on the pictures you have provided looks good - is it able to use them even if they are from the old version of the game?

I do not see into this area...

... and I share your interest. And I believe it will be done.

[Renan]

I think modcraft ate my message.

[sshroud]

Speaking of which...

Indeed, many settlements can be improved. As I have mentioned higher, even Goldshire is concerned. The houses on the pictures you have provided looks good - is it able to use them even if they are from the old version of the game?

I do not see into this area...

... and I share your interest. And I believe it will be done.

Most of the early alpha assets aren't in the game, but then again they'd look extremely dated anyways. On the other hand it shouldn't be any problem to recreate them, I've seen the texture files used for it somewhere deep into the game directories.

Of course, I think it would be better to focus on limited areas at a time, e.g.  starting with Durotar/Barrens, if you went with that approach it might just become viable to recreate the world from scratch again. Now that I think of it, the idea of playing through all the Warcraft 3 campaigns and plotting how the maps would look when combined together sounds kinda fun.

[Renan]

Speaking of which...

Indeed, many settlements can be improved. As I have mentioned higher, even Goldshire is concerned. The houses on the pictures you have provided looks good - is it able to use them even if they are from the old version of the game?

I do not see into this area...

... and I share your interest. And I believe it will be done.

Most of the early alpha assets aren't in the game, but then again they'd look extremely dated anyways. On the other hand it shouldn't be any problem to recreate them, I've seen the texture files used for it somewhere deep into the game files.

Of course, I think it would be better to focus on limited areas at a time, e.g.  starting with Durotar/Barrens, if you went with that approach it might just become viable to recreate the world from scratch again. Now that I think of it, the idea of playing through all the Warcraft 3 campaigns and plotting how the maps would look when combined together sounds kinda fun.

And it'd also be nice to see the maps they provided and use that for reference, as well. I know for a fact numerous towns are missing from WoW that were present in WC3.

[Martinus]

I think modcraft ate my message.

Welcome, Renan!

I understand it as a reference to our private conversation.

Most of the early alpha assets...

I thank you for providing me with an insight even into this issue, sshroud. I am glad to hear that it might not prove to be difficult to recreate them or create other similar models.

By an area I was refering to this:

"work with art assets [...] binary formats [...] hex editor [...] all those [...]  tasks"

, as an actual area, or field of activity, into which I do not see, as I do not know the functioning of these programs. And exactly: I intend to incorporate all of the content from Warcraft III, with proper adjustment if needed. Vital information is also stored within in-game quests in Warcraft III and, of course, manuals, even from Warcraft I and Warcraft II.

And it'd also be nice...

Indeed, every vital information will be considered and consistently incorporated. I would like to include even information from official melee maps, as already noted in the case of the Monolith scenario. These pillars of stone will appear in Ashenvale (carved, erected and corrupted by Satyrs, who have advanced after the events of Warcraft III) to corrupt wildlife. The other examples are those maps with a title proper for re-use (Turtle Rock, Enacro's Way, Bloodstone Mesa), which can be used in-game to refer to a particular existing locations or create new ones after them.

Concerning the naming of the locations in the World, I would like that the names of the locations will not be displayed to the Players (on screen after entering into certain location or on the minimap). Even minimap shoud be disabled from the game. The only use of minimap should be enabled exclusivelly only while using certain abilities. For example: a mage casting a spell which will enable him to locate nearby humanoids or demons, who will be displayed on the minimap in the same fashion as if the hunter is using Track Humanoids.

[Martinus]

Greetings again,

I present a proposed terrain elevation in Kalimdor (please, see the attachment). New content also appears in the initial message of this thread.

I am looking forward to your kind reactions.

[sshroud]

If I may chip in another suggestion; I think you should consider narrowing the scope and breaking the content into modules that can be added later and exist independently of each other, with a small size you won't have to compromise as much. For example, judging from your first post I get the impression that your early focus has been on Durotar/Barrens, if you could focus on realizing that area and use it a playground for new ideas I think you've got yourself something solid along with a path to grow from there.

I'd also urge you to strongly consider what is essential and what isn't, my impression is that the focus is scattered from the core concept to the most trivial details, e.g. NPC details or world topology. While having an eye for detail is a great quality to have it could help to break the work down into a hierarchy from most important to least and go from the top to bottom and develop the less important features/ideas later. Starting with polish early on can give high quality, but from what we're dealing with here I think it's important to get something essential to go on, an elevator pitch, a prototype, something concise and tangible.

If someone told you to get started with this yourself all on your own, even if just a prototype, I don't think you will make it, there's much to be done and learnt before even being able to take on the actual project. However, if you distill the very essence and your passion for it(feed us your koolaid) then you might be able to form a circle of people with an aligned interest who'd be interested in helping you create the prototype for it, and if people like what they see in the prototype you can go on from there.

Please understand that I say this with your best interest in mind, I don't write this with any hostile connotations or try to undermine your effort.

[Martinus]

If I may chip in another suggestion...

Greetings again, sshroud!

I see... As the whole concept of the World is not yet finished, some forms of its realization are being conceptualized only during process of  the actual work on the project. Therefore I can not determine with certainty which modules should be applied and if their application ensures compatibility with the other ones.

Yes, during that initial stage of developent I have had provided materials (pictures and information) depicting different models of the World to decide which one can be realized. Those maps of Durotar, Barrens, Mulgore and Darkshore had represented the Model 3 of the World, where there will be minimum terrain changes (if any) and the work in that respective model was meant to focus solely on movables (entities, objects) and abstraction (quest and attributes changes). However, as I have recieved support and confirmations concerning the Model 2 of the World, which incorporates also re-shaping of the World, I have chosen this as an actual model World for the project. The work has already begun on Kalimdor and Lordaeron. Therefore I have drafted a topographical map, in this instance, of Kalimdor for coordination of the work concerning terrain re-modelation of the main continental structure.

Also in relation to the first paragraph of this message: While the work is proceeding, I am continually advancing to further details: environmental features of respective regions followed by design of, as you have noted, the "bottom ideas". As you can possibly see, I emphasize on geografical distribution of features in accordance with Warcraft III loading screens while also operating with other official Warcraft-related materials, as pre-World of Warcraft concepts and Role-playing game materials are, for illustration, for their further adjustment.

You are right. I am aware of this situation and am coordinating the work to proceed in accord with the possibilities and expectations.

As I am meaning this project seriously, all of your activities are fully respected here, sshroud. Your contribution is always appreciated, as that of anyone else.

I thank you.

[Vortalex]

I think the project is far too large for you to do. It looks okay and all I guess but, just far too large a project.

Simple as that.

[Martinus]

I think the project is far too large for you to do. It looks okay and all I guess but, just far too large a project.

Simple as that.

I welcome everyone in joining the cause.

[Martinus]

I wish you a good day again,

I inform you that as the work on the World continues, a new formalized and detailed description of the project is being prepared for publication.

Before it is issued, I will sequentially present to you individual concepts for your revisions in order to ensure their proper conceptualization and implementation thereof.

***

Concept of mining


There are planned to be a three types of means (two original and one new) of how to find resources through mining activity:
1.   By their extraction from objects (resource nodes).
2.   By their extraction from entities (giants and elementals).
3.   By their extraction from locations (universal).

In the first two cases, a resource can be extracted in the same manner as it is able currently in game. In the third case, the mining ability will be usable at any location in the World, but only certain locations contain a specific resource. Each location will provide a certain chance to find a specific resource. The actual chance will be determined by the richness of the given location. The richness and representation of resources will correspond with the character of the given location.

Example: In a cave, or ideally a mine, the chance to find a resource will be many times higher than, for example, on the farming field. Also the representation of minerals, ores and stones will be derived from a character of the location concerned. As a result, the mining performed on the farm field will provide empty loot, or at least a dirt or a stone. The result from mining in a cave will most probably be a loot containing a mineral specific to that location. The loot will also contain rock, as it is another material extracted in the process.

The highest chance to find a resource will be from extracting it from objects or entities, where its presence is evident. The presence of a resource node might also indicate an abundance of resources in respective location. So the chance to find a resource in the vicinity of the mentioned resource node will be higher. At the same time, the representation of resources in that particular location can be determined by the kind of a resource the node contains.

***

I am looking forward to your reactions.