Welcome testers

[Steff]

In this board I want to build up the tutorial.
Please read all posts that Ill mart with the prefix [TESTME]

Read it. Try the stuff descriped.
Give feedback and most importand, help me to get a good english syntax and spelling in it.

It will not only be a tutorial. ill build up an getting started pack for modding beginners.
It should get fast up and running. So we will see if it will work


I dont know how long it will take to get the first stuff online so be patient.

Thanks for your help ahead!

And hold all thumbs that it will get the yellow from the egg

[Sina]

Some thoughts I had to this topic:

For the starter pack:
It should include...
- Editor (to mod the world)
- Client (to have sth to mod and play)
- Server (again, to play)

Or the long version:

- Editor
   Noggit SDL
   Modelviewer 7
   DBC-Editor
   MPQ-Editor
(FuTa)

- Client
   realmlist: 127.0.0.1
   edited WoW.exe (to load from win-folders)
   ? Custom Modcraft Login-Screen ?
   first Default-Map (adts, dbc)

- Server
   Trinity
   Map.dbc changed (Default-Map added)
   Alternative-Config for online use
   ? Modcraft DNS ?
   ? Patch-Sharing-System (Download Server) ?


And because the forum is pretty big and very confusing for a newcomer, it would be cool to have a easy webpage as a subdomain. And then create kinda shortlink like noggit.de.vu or noggit.tk. So you can just say: "Interested in modding? Just go there and you'll get a first look!"

How I thought it could look like:

Note: Plug-Ins was just another idea... ignore it, so far.
Not visible are...
"Any Questions?! Visit our FAQ to find answers!"
"Watch Show-offs about all kind of modding!"
"Donate to keep the worlds online!" (also from another thought, if modcraft had a domain like modcraft.com, which would cost money)

[Ascathos]

Mind if I also do a tutorial ? I'd write about how to proceed in modding: what could you do if you want to mod something, etc.

[matija168]

I totally agree with everything Sina wrote, and i especially like her website layout aswell as the idea for Modcraft login screen on the starter pack client.

[Steff]

The overview page is an good Idea. Perhaps just as entrypage for the main domain. If you want to visit the board you can just make a shortcut to it in your browser.

Some thing that would be nice just are not possible because law issues. I dont want to out me with real personal data as long the wow modding runs in such a gray zone. This inlcudes the official domain. I pay 20 € cent per domain and year so the money is not the problem. Also I will not inlcude a full client in the pack and a modded wow.exe. This must stay on external links.

I also will not only give some tools out and tuts for it. I willl provide my work file structure with fast setup. Just extract to your harddisc, copy the fitting folder subdir from tools into the main dir, then put 2 time the client in the client folders and modelviewer or noggit will just work.

Also I will ty to convince the people to extract the client one time into the clientFiles folder. So you have fast acces to original files if you need them and have no longer the trouble finding the right files in MPQs.

This all will take around 48 GB on your modding drive if you delete the maps again from clientFiles after full extraction.Its much space but it makes live so much easyer

First I wanted to write the full tutorial just in HTML and add a link to the site. But in tha past people just dont find stuff that was external linked. Like the wiki. So the next idea is to add every chapter as an post and creat a sticky index post where you will find all chapters as link. This way people can just add comments and questions direct in the fitting tutorial part and can disscuss it there. They will not be able to creat new posts in ths board. Only answer in the tutorials.

The server will get another pack to make the modding pack itself not to big. Its still around 240 MB

Also modeling stuff will get another pack perhaps later with own tutorials.

This is the current pack file structure:

* Client335aNoggit < Just empty fodler - Client only for noggit
* Client335aTest < Just empty fodler - Client for testing and ModelViewer
* ClientFiles < Just empty fodler - Extracted client files without maps

* Projects < You project folder where all new projects will be included in he future.. Hopefully
_* TutorialProject < The first project folder with pre configured testmaps for fast entry. It is set to noggit project folder
__* documentation
__* material
__* patch-local-base
___* DBFilesClient
__* patch-work
___* world
____* maps
_____* test01
_____* test02
_____* test03
__* scripts

* Tools < Tools collection... could change during tutorial writing.
_* 010Templates
_* ADTAdder
_* AllWaterGui
_* BLPConverter
_* BLPShellExtention
_* CMD
_* FuTa
_* MPQEdit1.1
_* MPQEdit3.2
_* MyDbcEditor
_* NoggitSDL
_* Taliis
_* WModelViewer7

_* ProjektTemplate < You want to start a new project. Just copy this to your project folder and rename
__* documentation
__* material
__* patch-deDE
__* patch-enEN
__* patch-local-base
__* patch-ready
__* patch-work
__* scripts

_* DriveLetter < Fast config file setup. Just copy you folder letter to the root wowModding folder.
__* C
___* Tools
____* NoggitSDL
____* WoWModelViewer7
_____* userSettings
__* D
___* Tools
____* NoggitSDL
____* WoWModelViewer7
_____* userSettings
__* E
___* Tools
____* NoggitSDL
____* WoWModelViewer7
_____* userSettings
__* F
___* Tools
____* NoggitSDL
____* WoWModelViewer7
_____* userSettings

Rough tutorial plan

1. Setup the pack and describe it.

First noggit overview project. Build a smale village on an island and get it ingame. I will cover some basic noggit use here and get fast ingame to get results and rise motivation. Do on test1.

2. First basic noggit usage
3. Setup water script
4. Texturing
5. Modeling the ground
6. Adding models
7. Create a MPQ file from just created stuff and have a look ingame.

Now a full series will follow where we build a detailed 2 ADT map covering every step on test2
I am still planing on this.

Stuff to explain

4 texturing system
Alpha mapping
Ground effects
AreaID setup
Skybox
Miniimaps
...

[Sina]

It would be VERY cool, if there is a program to make all this copy-things, etc.
Also some kind of quicklauncher for the programs.

Normal, stupid people (like me ) don't think with folders. I could delete my modding folders ever two months, because I just copied some things there, made some save copies there, some files of this project there.
So it would be cool to have a program, which would "translate" this to a more human-usual way of thinking.
What I mean is: People don't think "Hey, I could copy this premade folder to somewhere and rename it. And don't change it else, to screw the whole thing up.". They think "I want to start.". Maybe "I want to create a project.".
It would be cool, if the program just has a "New Project"-Button, which does this. A lot easier and you can't screw it up.
Same with the program names. Normal people don't just think "Hey, I want to start noggit.", they usually want to "Edit the world". A folder full of programs helps, in the first way, nothing. It's like my first view on crytec tools (in elous bundle). I opened it, clicked the funny names, saw some funny dos-boxes, smiled, and closed it again. Forever.
So it would be cool to have a program with the Button "World editing". This opens a window which shows links to the programs with understandable names. Like "Edit World" (->Noggit+Modelviewer), "Add Water" (->AllWaterGui), "Edit Sky" (->MyDbcEditor), etc.
For things like the sky, it would be nice if the program could work with dbcs. Because only opening the dbc editor won't help a lot. Much better, if you type it into the program, and the program opens the right dbc, jumps to the line of the project, you are currently editing and as you save it, it also copies this into your patch-folder for the project.

Things like FuTa are kinda hard to describe, but that's no problem. As a beginner, you won't need FuTa, it would just confuse you. If you are advanced, you can use it later (therefore the "plug-ins").
It's surely better, to get all programs with the first download and no need to download them step by step. But this increases the need for a quick launcher for beginners, so you don't get killed by a folder with 20 programs.


About the client: Therefore, a program would also be nice. Just something, that downloads the client and places it in the right folder.
I don't know how hexediting works with programs, but if the program would edit the wow.exe (which is started by the user), I don't think this would occur legal issues.


All in all: I think, you help people the most by making it simple (game-like, thinking in "worlds" and not in folders, dbcs and maps). Therefore, a program would be immense usefull.


This could be a little example, what I mean: http://www.gameglobe.com/
Easy website, easy modding-start, then chances to become better. Easy playing (in the browser), easy sharing, lots of help-functions, etc.
Sure, WoW-Modding will never be that easy, but just to show some main aspects.
All in all, this game is really boring :/


The folders, how you described them, are in a good order, what would be a very good base for a program. But not even I, as being not really a newcomer, can't understand all

[Steff]

I am NOT able to create data stuff. If i am the app you descripe would bee done 4 years ago. But al the others that are able to do it dont get it done. I want this app: But its simple impossible if you dont get the data handled.

I started this with noggit and it failes. No i try with sharpWoW but again cromon now dont do work for 6 weeks. I spend around 40 houres of coding with the interface and again no data managemen from other guys. I cant count the useless spend houres i try to get this done. Must be hundreds now.

Why do i all this? Because the hope to find some people to work together. Give out what I learn in the hope to get someday help back and find some people that want to do something great together, no only help me with my project but join the idea, like it and get it done in a team.

And as long there is no such app the next way is to mae it easyer for people to start.

My noggit concept.
wiki/index.php5?title=Noggit_studio_concept
wiki/index.php5?title=Noggit4

Stuff implemented in c# for join with cromon. Full project management implemented.


http://imagr.eu/up/509198682c1126_genesis.jpg

Stuff i have done 3 ears ago. Modcraft manager. App that used existing other apps like noggit or CMD tools and run them. But this was way to slow and buggy for use


http://imagr.eu/up/509197bb9ce803_TExture.jpg


http://imagr.eu/up/509198327c0fd9_Unbenannt-2.jpg

The UI stuff I implemented in noggit you all know

From


http://imagr.eu/upload/Noggit5.JPG

Yes this was the interface of noggit if we started. There was simple no interface. Only some text stuff over the 3d view. All the menus dialogs and so on where created by me. Except Textur browser and tool options. They where stil implemented on startup. So we get to this.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QEUr6Q7e8AU/U ... 0/Caps.jpg

So yes you are right, we need such a app and I want it . And if you now give me contacts to 1 till 3 coders that are able to write data classes for me and give them to me I will again spend tons of time to get a working app coded.

But if the app is done. Will we realy see a big project many work togehter on. I think no because all want to do OWN server and stuff. Its .....frustrating...

[Sina]

Same problem like everytime :/

Someone who just can do some java or something, to create some buttons which start the starter-programs would be helpfull. And you had this backup-manager, this would, with some changes, also be very helpfull.

[matija168]

You should make a Modcraft Noggit development team recruitment sheet, make a shortcut on the index page, and post the recruitment thread on every single community that has anything to do with wow modding and / coding. I'm sure someone willing to help would respond. It's something worth trying I guess.

[Steff]

We run it now for over 4 years. And for one open source. There are not much developers out there in the modding szene. And I know the mosts and the one exist dont have skills in data stuff.

And sina why an app for something you can do with windows build in  functions or with an dock app?

http://imagr.eu/up/50922b5bb703e5_RocketDockWoW.jpg

[Sina]

And sina why an app for something you can do with windows build in  functions or with an dock app?

Because nobody uses it :3

It a little bit like saying "Why having a custom mouse for a game, people can change their mouse in windows". People just don't. It needs a hell lot of time, to get the things, as you want them this way.
Also, people had to rename the programs to something understandable "TerrainEditor", etc. Also with "authserver" and "worldserver". Normal people think "I want to try my map". So, "Try map"-Button starts authserver, worldserver and then the game. TerrainEditor-Button starts Noggit and Modelviewer. It's a click less, and one thought less, which of this crazy names were the one, you needed to do, what you wanted to do.

[Steff]

I tink people that need such low level help will never finish a worldbuilding. If you want to learn some stuff you have to read some stuff and understand the tech behind it. And wow is not the easyest tech and the most bad thing is that it is almost not full discover waht all this DBC entrys realy do.

I sometimes near getting to rage if people dont read tutorials and help because its to Much to read. They perhaps dont think about that we need much more time to write it so its a litle bit disrespectful. Ys I want to make it easyer for beginners but i dont want to take the hand of lazy people and show them how to use own feet to walk.

How to setup your windows system to get fast to your app have nothing to do with modding but with basic PC usage. Perhaps you could just take a look at rocet dock and tell people how to use it.

Again I am with you at the app idea, but people also should invest some bain and self-initiative.

But now back to the topic. Will try to get forst part(s) ready next weekend.

[Sina]

i dont want to take the hand of lazy people and show them how to use own feet to walk.

Help them with the first step, and they will see, if they want to walk.
It's like someone, who says he want to learn about 3D-work and you just give him a incredible big book. That's not motivating. Only few masters of their art really started with the idea "That's what I really want to do!". They tried some times and then found out, that they really like it, and read things about it, etc, etc.

I think, if this first trying is easier, more people would try (and find out, that they like it). That's why I slowly learned to use Blender or GIMP (which are, in some opinions, horrible to use) and never Java. Blender/GIMP can be downloaded and easy installed. It shows just the basics to get something done. For more, you have to install add-ons (or activate them). For Java, you have to create a development environment out of 3-4 downloads (I can't remember all), and I didn't know, if everything was installed right.

Just make the first hour in modding easier by giving a small quicklaunch-program  which leads you a little bit (opens the fitting tutorials, for what you want to do, etc), the more people will try, the more people will know about it and the more future pro-modders will see it. That's how I think, it could work.




And, yes, we could make an own thread for the discussion, how to get beginners and how to help them.

[Steff]

> and you just give him a incredible big book.

Thats the way I learn stuff. Read 1 till 3 such books in month. I love to read such stuff IF there are books for the topic I am interested in. If you work in a technical job its a must to be up to date.

> Blender or GIMP

I work with photoshop and 3D Studio at work for over 13 Years now. And I can say that blender and Gimp are the horribles apps. I try to get into them but the workflows are just crap.

> Java...
learn c# if you dont need apps for Linux. Much easyer and modern.

> Just make the first hour in modding easier
I have not the time to do ALL of this and others just don´t do it. Modcraft is no community. There are 5 till 7 people do "some" stuff and 2500 guys only take and not give anything back.

I know what would be good to get every beginner the posbillity to get fast and easy started. I just don´t know if I have the time and motivation to do this all. I want to build. I dont do all this sutff because its fun for me. Its just the stupid hope to get a team together.

So back to topic

Are there all tools in that are needed or did i forgot something? No modeling in the moemnt only map making and DBC stuff.

[matija168]

I sometimes near getting to rage if people dont read tutorials and help because its to Much to read.

You said yourself that WoW modding is all about "Try and error".
I have myself never read the whole tutorials, but rather went about discovering things myself.

And sina why an app for something you can do with windows build in functions or with an dock app?

I would say that kind of attitude is exacelly the thing that is blocking the modding scene from progressing any further. The answer to that question is simple, "because I can" and "because it will make things easier to the entire community". Simplifying everything to a "noob-friendly" degree would certainly help in not scaring newbies in their first look on a collection of dozens -separate- tools with their own funcions nessesary to be used one with another. Because I must say that I myself was dreaded on the first sight on the tool page.