[QUESTION/REQUEST] NoggIt Development

[TheBuG]

It's been a while since I actually requested anything, or anyone did.

I realize NoggIt development is something inconsistent and usually happens one or two months and dies shortly after again. The latest Noggit SDL works somewhat ok. It does the job that it's supposed to do.

However I've personally started to become somewhat interested in building for Cataclysm, and perhaps later on MoP/WoD, because of the improved graphical options (I know WoW isn't the prettiest game, but Cataclysm brings really nice improvements over WotLK). Besides the graphics there's also the huge amount of assets we could use. Yes, we can use most of them on WotLK with some work arounds, but it's far from convenient. Noggit already works fine with loading all those assets (Without them being hex edited to work with WotLK).

I also realize there've been quite some changes to the file formats and usage of those by the WoW client between WotLK and Cataclysm. However, since Cataclysm there seems to have been only very minimal changes (mostly to M2s/Particles). ADTs have barely changed between from Cataclysm to WoD. (Though WoD allows 6 textures per chunk?)

(Now, here's the part where every developer gets to bash me for, as I've no knowledge of any developing.)
How hard could it be to have NoggIt save it's ADTs for Cataclysm(+)? Perhaps even implemented by simply having an option in the config file for the format to save in. We've got Mjollna's ADT converter. It works fine, besides a small WMO collision problem. But it'd be so much more convenient if Noggit simply did it by itself.

I know the MPQs have changed as well, or rather how they're organised, but we wouldn't even need the client as long as we can just load files from the project folder (As we do now).

Is it plausible to have this happen?

[iindigo]

MoP brings some nice graphical bits, too… mainly m2 -> terrain texture blending, but also texture scale and rotation. It’s also capable of incredibly detailed texture alpha to the point of filling in the cracks of height maps of other textures, as well as greatly improved phasing and client-side cinematics (like we’ve seen schlumpf playing with).

So while a jump to Cata would be nice, going straight to MoP would be even nicer. Also, while I can’t speak for others, MoP performs considerably better on my machine than Cata did… Cata seemed rather unoptimized.

It’s probably going to be difficult to update the current noggit to handle Cata or MoP files, though. Its codebase is a horrible mess and the rendering side is outdated to boot, being written in badly optimized OpenGL 1 (at least from what I can see). What really need to happen is for people to shift their efforts to Noggit-Qt, which is a modern rewrite that suffers none of the issues that the original has, but nobody seems to want to buckle down and get the base work done… they’d rather tweak on an old broken rustbucket.

[TheBuG]

MoP brings some nice graphical bits, too… mainly m2 -> terrain texture blending, but also texture scale and rotation. It’s also capable of incredibly detailed texture alpha to the point of filling in the cracks of height maps of other textures, as well as greatly improved phasing and client-side cinematics (like we’ve seen schlumpf playing with).

So while a jump to Cata would be nice, going straight to MoP would be even nicer. Also, while I can’t speak for others, MoP performs considerably better on my machine than Cata did… Cata seemed rather unoptimized.

It’s probably going to be difficult to update the current noggit to handle Cata or MoP files, though. Its codebase is a horrible mess and the rendering side is outdated to boot, being written in badly optimized OpenGL 1 (at least from what I can see). What really need to happen is for people to shift their efforts to Noggit-Qt, which is a modern rewrite that suffers none of the issues that the original has, but nobody seems to want to buckle down and get the base work done… they’d rather tweak on an old broken rustbucket.

Agreed. But that would probably be a lot of work. Starting of by simply saving ADTs in the way the client(s) read them in Cata/MoP (As I recall, they're almost the same) would be a good start.

[Steff]

ADT Format totalychange from 335a to4. There are now 2 files with different format.
And nogit development never stoped.But as we are still only 2 idiots doing somework even it IS NOW again open source... everything went slow.Also Hanfer and me has other things on list

If you are interested in help just contact me.

We also start a new code base for noggit with clean codeand structure. And this takes time. So no progress on SDL.

[Kranimal]

I think now that WOD is moving away from MPQ and going to CASC that actually modding development should be pushed to the patch of MOP right before they switch everything to casc. Since a majority of stuff was designed around MPQ's it would prevent having to update all the tools to casc format but still get all the nice graphics engine stuff and all the wmo/m2's up to MOP. That should be WWAAAAAYYYYYyyyyyyyy more then enough stuff to edit with.

At least in my personal opinion. I am pretty much just waiting for the tools to be updated and what not to a different version before I go and do Wow modding again (as it was getting just a little to frustrating trying to downgrade the stuff from MOP to WOTLK)/

Anthony's Toolbox worked just fine with the M2 files and such but the heart of what I (and most other people) wanted to use were the .wmo files (which crashed noggit after you save every single time).

I actually tried converting the models to v17 I think it was but I am no guru when it comes to that stuff so I am sure I just did something wrong in the programs. Cause the OBJtoWMO from mirror machine works like a charm but just me myself could not get the textures to be on the models.

Either way lol (Now if I was able to get the .wmo files from cata/mop ported over to WOTLK I would probably mod it again). But alas I will wait =D

Cheers

[schlumpf]

Everything but latest is a waste of time. Casc is not a problem for noggit, as API is equivalent, only the MPQ handling itself needs to be changed, which is one file.  Noggit never packed mpqs, so in fact, adding case reading support would be trivial; everything required is known.

[iindigo]

What are the barriers preventing the use of version-agnostic intermediate file formats? With those, people can publish for the version they prefer (with limits). It’d also fix the problem of accidentally destroying things when a bug shows its head, and if the ADT generation code gets greatly improved in a future release, users would be able to benefit by simply re-exporting their terrain with the new version.

[schlumpf]

Version agnostic file formats while the file formats to export to change greatly are hard, IMHO. Should the format allow 4 or 6 or 8 (X7) layers? Should it use a 64x64 hole bitmask? Should old versions just ignore stuff they don't know, like vertex coloring etc?

It needs to be a version agnostic file format that is extendable with completely new stuff, but also with stuff changing inside of existing chunks. I wouldn't know how to design something like that.

[Steff]

The main problems are missjng motivated developers and users givjng feedback and making bug tests to motivate developers.

[Hobbilis]

I'd like to point out that relaxok is doing a great job with his MMOSDK project and i certainly hope it becomes a new Noggit. Because from what i see/read noggit is functional but lacks a lot of stuff.

[Kranimal]

I'd like to point out that relaxok is doing a great job with his MMOSDK project and i certainly hope it becomes a new Noggit. Because from what i see/read noggit is functional but lacks a lot of stuff.

I have been to the thread and seen/read everything I could think of to find that actually. Wanted to test it so bad I actually spent about 2-3 hours scouring the internet for a download of it lol.

But from what I understand that isn't just a Wow builder but an entire MMO builder (correct me if I am wrong) and I am not to sure he would release that to the public as freeware.

I hope he does lol, but, we will see =D

[akspa420]

I'd like to point out that relaxok is doing a great job with his MMOSDK project and i certainly hope it becomes a new Noggit. Because from what i see/read noggit is functional but lacks a lot of stuff.

I have been to the thread and seen/read everything I could think of to find that actually. Wanted to test it so bad I actually spent about 2-3 hours scouring the internet for a download of it lol.

But from what I understand that isn't just a Wow builder but an entire MMO builder (correct me if I am wrong) and I am not to sure he would release that to the public as freeware.

I hope he does lol, but, we will see =D

MMOSDK is an entirely new engine, with relaxok's own coding from start to finish. It converts the WoW data to his file formats, which are still somewhat evolving between releases of the beta/alpha tools. I don't believe he's interested in offering any sort of export tools from his engine back down to WoW's engine, as his engine is capable of much more since it's a hobby and not a corporate-funded project. Ideally, his engine will become the best platform to build an MMO off of in the future.

At this point, he has verified that most of WoD's files are supported properly within his conversion tools - which is an amazing feat by one person (granted, the Wowdev wiki is a wealth of information, and he does contribute back to it as he figures things out).

Perhaps if he decides to write a modding API in the future, the ability to export the contents of a world you design in his engine would be able to be ported back to another engine, but at the current time, that's not the point of the MMOSDK project.

[Hobbilis]

Initially my understanding was that we'll be able to create/edit stuff in WoW with his software. I know he said something about not supporting wotlk anymore.

[Steff]

His project has nothing ro do with an wow editor.  Is is a fully new game engien and it will take time to bring itnto the point what we can already do with wow.  But it is an option for the futur.  Not for modded wow servers bjt for projects like maruum.

[Hobbilis]

When i first heard of it i thought it was going to be the next big thing in modcraft community. Guess i was wrong.