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Featured => Noggit => Topic started by: glararan on July 27, 2013, 10:00:14 pm
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Hi,
I have again time for working on Noggit, does anybody working on Qt branch? Or Its still dead?
After year I have again more experience with programming and need to improve Qt & OpenGL, so here I can try it. :|
To schlumpf: Do you watching Qt development? Currently is 5.1 and that's question on you "Will we move from 4.8 to 5.1 or you don't see here any improvments for Noggit?"
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Hi. The development is on, but currently on 1.3 SDL. I heard Hanfer was trying to port existing development version (with some new features) and made some success. So, I guess SDL 1.3 will be the last SDL version.
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"SDL 1.3" development is most likely the only relevant thing. But it is private development of people I don't even know. Thus, I don't care about noggit anymore. I tried improving the code base, allowing everyone to contribute and properly be open source, improving the windowing system, cross platform functionality, stability, quality of output, diagnostics of errors. But now, development is private again, not even telling me where, still using SDL as people don't care about it, is full of half-baked, bugged features by stacking hack on hack, and still does not provide a proper crash logs on windows, even as all tech is in place, because nobody ever tried to fix it, even if it is one of the core things to help people having problems.
Moving to Qt5 needs quite some changes. At work, we didn't switch yet, don't plan to do so now.
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Omg, so again someone forked repo and doing just for self and releasing?
I have to ask myself if I should do something on repo.
Last commit is from schlumpf year ago, nobody from community "tried" to do something for noggit.
Maybe I will create my own non-WoW project for l2 work with Qt 5.1 & OpenGL.
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Omg, so again someone forked repo and doing just for self and releasing?
I have to ask myself if I should do something on repo.
Last commit is from schlumpf year ago, nobody from community "tried" to do something for noggit.
Maybe I will create my own non-WoW project for l2 work with Qt 5.1 & OpenGL.
From what I have heard Steff was not very good at C++ but still wanted to contribute so he made his own private fork so that he can contribute hacky code to get stuff to work. It mostly needs a rewrite now.
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Why he couldn't work on "SDL fixes" branch? I'm with schlumpf, I don't like xx reposits and from private releasing, we can't see source code and we can't continue in Qt work when 1/X fixes is already done in SDL
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Sdl_fixes is a diff from the last public SDL version to 1.1 or something, that steff sent me, which I then tried to separate into different commits.
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I did closed repo for fixes on SDL. I did this closed because QT should be the main branch in this time. After some talk to hanfer we decide to go an other way. We now work together with beket and develop noggit ahead on the SDL branch. We work now on the 1.3 version to release.
Our goals are.
1. Keep noggit always fully functional during development . So we can release new working versions from time to time. Thats why noone wants to contribute to QT version. Its simple not useable. And people contribute because:
a: They need new functions because they are builders.
b: They want honor and a version you can´t release give non.
2. Clean up the code structure and do much refactoring to a good and more modern code base.
3. Bring noggit step by step in QT direction to have more possibillitys.
We will do this only in this samle team till we are happy with the code base.Then we will decide if we stay closed but let others also work on it, or even get this code open source again.
The final goal is to get this concept one day.
Its still a draft but shows the main idea of the IDE.
wiki/index.php5?title=Noggit_studio_concept (http://modcraft.io/wiki/index.php5?title=Noggit_studio_concept" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Here is the current changelog of SDL1.3 We are in testing phase now but don´t know release date because we will not make it public if its not tested well.
- Add app Icon
- You can now load BGs
- Add load all tileset function to texture pallet
- Change rows and cols direction and count
- Add big preview of selected texture
- Discard the old current texture window
- Fix texture pallet size to fit names
- Do Rel with debug now
- ALT + 1 till 5 set now the texture paint opercety to 100,75,50,25 and 0 %
- Space + Maus = Speed and Pressure
- Log file caonfig file hints
- Link to Manual wiki
- Load MPQs now in read only
- WMO culing Work now better
- Add ground flatten&blur speed
- UID Fix
- Clean out test and deprecated menu functions
- Maptile display on minimap
- Auto size,tile and rotation works now also if you have copy model size and rotation activated.
- In Holes mode you can now also turn on and off the full chunk if you hold down the ALT key during edit.
- Better water rendering
- Water save now
- Better Vertics Rendering
- Water fix for custom added water
- After you have saved the selection works not. You have to cloase noggit and reload. This is fixed now.
This is what all works now fine but some smale points are still on list.
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Do it in public.
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Nice, good things coming. I have to say I agree with Schlumpf, but that's great someone is working on that.
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I hope that QT will developet. This bit be much better i think :/
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Guys, actually, these unknown developers (how schlumpf said) made pretty good things. I'am now working (and testing) on Beket's 3.68 version and everything is good there. New features is awesome, new rendering is awesome, old bugs disappear? So, what's wrong? Everything goes well. Aso I know at least 4 guys work on Noggit now and Hanfer is trying to port it to QT.
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We are not unknown. Its Hanfer, Beket and me working in the moment on it.
We had yesterday a meeting and will force now 1.3 release. With 1.4 many stuff under the hood will change. We ahve a branch where the system fully goes to a model view concept with a action engein for undo. Works relay nice already. And we also focus the swap to qt in 1.4 but in first place ony under the hood. Noggit will then look the same. But we can in further development use UI stuff from QT.
Hanfer did a hell of refactoring and code is getting better every day ;)
So yes, there is development on noggit and some day it will also be again opne source.
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There is _no_ reason to be private.
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I can't express how glad I am to hear development is being started again.
And honestly, I can't say having the development be private is a bad thing at all, as it ensures the quality of the code itself, though I do believe that everyone with sufficient knowledge and will to work on it should be accepted on the team developing it. That's just my two cents, though.
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I can't say having the development be private is a bad thing at all, as it ensures the quality of the code itself
How does _no_ code review of third parties improve the quality? Noggit has gained a horrible code base by being handed wildly through a chain of non-public development.
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I see no reason to make it public now when it is under development. But I see no reason not to do it after relase.
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Maybe, checking for errors _before_ a release would be a reason? You seem not to be familiar with software development.
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Errors in code will lead to bugs in programm itself, so when we see no bugs during work of the application - there are no errors in code. 2-3 testers (who know what to test, not newbies in wow modmaking) is more than enough to check the most painful bugs. Also, opensource code before release can lead to different problems. For example, somebody downloaded the source, compiled and uploaded to any board with the link to Modcraft. So, the forum will be full of "pls help me noggit crashes every 5 mins". Also people will make bug-reports about errors that developers have already fixed long time ago. So, my opinion: we need to make Noggit open source, but only after the release of 1.3 or 1.4.
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Errors in code will lead to bugs in programm itself, so when we see no bugs during work of the application - there are no errors in code.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
No.
You can prove _presence_ of bugs, __not__ absence of bugs. Testing with a hundred people does not change shit. Bugs may still be present. Thus: More review, even static reading of code is more helpful.
For example, somebody downloaded the source, compiled and uploaded to any board with the link to Modcraft. So, the forum will be full of "pls help me noggit crashes every 5 mins".
There are hundreds of versions available on bitbucket. How often did you see that scenario happening? Correct, never.
I demand access to the repository or to have the commits be published to the already established repository.
In case of access, I will push them to the public one.
Just push it publically. There is _no_ harm. The only harm is development being private again, which I fought for for years.
And I hate my "baby" being dragged into a pile of shit with no insight, in private, after I spend actual weeks of real time with developing on it.
I will not accept that.
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There is _no_ reason to be private.
Agree. Open source dont means "free for beeing fucked by everyone that want to contribute".
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Thinking of this and as we're debating on IRC, it's GPL. And, you know, the 4 freedoms etc.
I release some stuff under GPL and would HATE to know someone fork it privately. Before even speaking about the motivations behind making it private or public, just a reminder that you mustn't hide this source.
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@Schlumpf: Yes, there are really a lot of versions on bit bucket, but they are outdated and has less functions than newer ones. Existing testing version of Noggit can save water on adts (3.68 Beket), but (just example) can crash on MCLQ water. So, we get half-working tool that is unstable. Then imagine a guy who compiled testing version, than put it to other board (ac-web.org for example). This will cause some problems I previously said.
Actually, I agree with you about private development. Noggit must be opensource. So, I offer such a system: we have 2 repos - release and development. Development repo consists of all development version, commits, forks and so on and it has closed access only for dev guys or testers. Release repo consists of all released Noggit versions with source included. This way we can avoid a lot of problems and floods of desinformation on the board.
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Your concerns never happened and most likely never will.
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Maybe, but don't you remember that some newbie asked a lot of questions about where is their 4 buttons they saw on videos and screenshots (Noggit3 odd buttons). The questions with buttons wasn't serious because we all know what is it, but when the questions will be about bugs that had already fixed, it will be bad. Anyway, I see no reason to make it opensource right now. Let's make a surprise for users with release.
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I understand what schlumpf meams.
There is no reason to make it privatr.
And as i know: schlumpf worked on noggit before, many ppl did.
And only a few do now which can be very frustrating for old developers.
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cant wait guys hope the best for you
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Honestly, I thought for a long time that schlumpf don't want to make sources private before this thread was started.
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Most all old developers work now again on it that are willing and still in the scene.
And again why its closed in the moment, we clean up. If this is done and there is a code base that is realy usefull to get open, it will.
And also again, there is a reason agains making something open souece. If you ask for help in the community for development my points are:
1. You have to give a good documentaions how to compile
2. A traker of jobs for the people.
3. You need to plan a roadmap to give people a hint what is most needed in the moment
4. You need to test the sended stuff (patches or forks) and give fast feedback. Nothing is more frustrating if you do some contributon to a codebase, send this in and noone repleys.
An I don´t see that there is someone in the moment with time for this.
Only releasing code on some open repository is not realy usefull to bring some benefit to a project. I don´t know how much frustrated post and direct privat messages I got in the last year form coders that even don´t get the QT version to compile.
If open source then the rigareht way.
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Only releasing code on some open repository is not realy usefull to bring some benefit to a project.
It might not attract new contributors, but allows for code review and shows that there is some activity.
I don´t know how much frustrated post and direct privat messages I got in the last year form coders that even don´t get the QT version to compile.
You may want to have asked then. Also, given the correct external dependencies, it should compile fine.
If open source then the rigareht way.
Wieso glaubst du eigentlich, darüber entscheiden zu können? Wir hatten damals ganz klar ausgemacht, dass wir es öffentlich entwickeln. Wir haben einen twitter feed, der commits published, einen Bug tracker, ein forum, sogar irgendwo noch eine mailingliste. Um es öffentlich zu haben. Erinnerst du dich nicht an die Jahre in denen es privat war?
Wenn du der originale Author von Noggit wärest, würde ich dir diese Entscheidung zugestehen. So finde ich es eine Anmaßung und Frechheit gegenüber den anderen Entwicklern.
_Wir_ hatten uns entschlossen, es öffentlich zu machen. _Wir_. Unabhängig von der Codequalität.
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Activity can be shown in Blog ot Twitter with description of new changes. Most users won't look to bitbucket to follow dev news, they will look to the blog.
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That's why there is a twitter account. It already does exactly this job. Automatically.
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Yes, so source is not needed to watch activity.
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It is.
An end user might not be interested, a developer might.
But well, I'll no longer discuss this with you.
The development and the process of it should be open.
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Twitter is for watching activity. Developers have access without any public repositories. I think you or other guys who are not in dev now can easily ask Steff to give an access to code.
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Do it in public.
BIG +1!!!!
Twitter is for watching activity. Developers have access without any public repositories. I think you or other guys who are not in dev now can easily ask Steff to give an access to code.
This is same as Github has function with contributors... who isnt can fork stuff and use it with license and copyright.. others can study (horrible) code like me..
So only contributors can work on repo, why is it hidden? Reason? Steff and other guys dont want currently share code or what?
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Here's another vote for openness, if for nothing else simply to ensure that interested parties can make sure it runs on their particular setup (non-Windows platforms included). The wishes of past developers should really be taken into consideration, too.
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It seems highly illogical that this is closed source with such a tiny team able to work on it. It doesn't need instructions on how to compile or anything else those who can contribute anything of use will be able to do this themselves. How on earth do you think this will progress if it's closed source?
Open up the source, open up the possibility of bug fixes, decent feature additions, code cleanup etc. etc.
I just don't understand. As schlumpf says, there is no reason to keep this private. Bah.
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As it seams the most dont read the ful post I will no just repeat my answer.
Most all old developers work now again on it that are willing and still in the scene.
And again why its closed in the moment, we clean up. If this is done and there is a code base that is realy usefull to get open, it will.
And also again, there is a reason agains making something open souece. If you ask for help in the community for development my points are:
1. You have to give a good documentaions how to compile
2. A traker of jobs for the people.
3. You need to plan a roadmap to give people a hint what is most needed in the moment
4. You need to test the sended stuff (patches or forks) and give fast feedback. Nothing is more frustrating if you do some contributon to a codebase, send this in and noone repleys.
An I don´t see that there is someone in the moment with time for this.
Only releasing code on some open repository is not realy usefull to bring some benefit to a project. I don´t know how much frustrated post and direct privat messages I got in the last year form coders that even don´t get the QT version to compile.
If open source then the right way.
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So how is it going ?
On my part, I prefer having a code and no explanation on how to compile than no code at all. Plus I still don't understand the point on keeping it closed source while it's completely against its license.
For the tracker part, there is "Bugtracker" link on the top of this website. Isn't bugtracker/index.php (http://modcraft.io/bugtracker/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) what you mean by "tracking jobs" ?
I also believe testing should be possible for people using it ( all the modders out there waiting for new noggit release, people who know how to use the software, who know the common bug they have, and who can write useful bug report )
Just add "BETA" mention, and some little text to say how unstable noggit can be, and how unsafe it is for a serious project ( though I doubt it's worse than before =p ) if you don't want people to complain.
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I still set my point. And release if it is eine.