Modcraft - The community dedicated to quality WoW modding!
Community => Random => Topic started by: SirFranc on March 28, 2011, 02:08:45 pm
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Hi, i want to tell you the story of why i'm going to leave the model editing scene
I do that because i honestly think that the best model editors are here, and all of you will probably understand how i feel during this, seeing, as for me, model editing as a brotherhood.
Why i say so? because people like me, Limee, Eluo, Steff(Even tough he's a programmer) and other great model editors or going-to-be great model editors have shared a lot the same feelings for our work, which is a passion, we all feel the same way with our job, which is, i could say, the best in the world (after the porn actor, but is a detail)
We share the will to make something unique, something that stands for us as a piece of art, not just a mere work, but something that brings up feelings to the users or to who sees screens of our work.
In this scene many of us know already what happened of late on AC-web, where me, Eluo, the dude that made Deadwind Keep, Limee and others got leeched many times (sorry Eluo i found out too late to tell you in time, and he deleted the post) where little pieces of scum (harsh but deserved) claimed our work (and our screens) as their own, to feel a little less pitiful or just get rep, i personally bought me and many friends to claim our work as our own and uncovering the thievery, but was a lost battle already, AC-web has the particular thing of having NO moderators except 2-3 dudes that aren't even reachable with PMs and whatnot, and well, they always plainly ingored me and all my requests of a bit of fairness, so leeching ran wild.
Yesterday i found an interesting surprise, some other piece of scum that actually deserves to die (he does) built up an entire site for my server... to rip my patches, decrypt them (even tough i just added a simple .exe check he removed) and make them downloadable to the public.
Now, you all know ( i guess) CoA and how the server was developing, and its strong point is in fact the new amount of content, I always put much effort in trying to keep the patch into CoA, and i did it because i had my ambitious (and i admit delusional) project to make a RP haven for who loved to RP in a RP-friendly environment. (WoW IS NOT RP-friendly, doesn't even make sense RP wise)
Now, imagine how would you feel seeing your work downloadable from a site that says "i'm gonna rip the shit ouf ot that douche" referring to you. As model editors, you can understand my feelings.
And then you see that little idiot posting it everywhere on Ac-web, MMowned, and other forums (he'll may post even here) and you already read people saying "that's awesome i'm going to give it to all my friends!" and whatnot, yes, you see your work raped and used by every noob he just want to claim it for himself.
How would you feel?
I bet really bad.
And so i asked to the various admins of all the sites to delete those posts. I had to send MANY pleas to AC-web and they eventually even deleted it granting my wish, on other forums tough, they just ingored me (mostly because the admin was as leeching from it too)
What made me astonished, and disappointed, was what happened on MMOWNED.
Many of you would think about MMOWNED as a serious and helpful environment, well you're wrong.
Kurious, at my request to delete it, stated two choices:
-I release the stuff myself
-I let him do
I have no words to describe how disappointed i am, i would have expected it from other forums, but not MMOWNED. (The post is temporarily deleted but it's likely to be reopened according to kurious)
Then i ask myself, how much people is actually thinking we worth? i remember Dynashock stating "that model editors are just common and raw working force, while programmers are like diamonds" Of course, everyone can take noggit and start working, and we have the proof seeing the floods of lame model edits done by noobs that want to boast themselves (i love when i see "here is my awesome model edit! it's epic guys *lame screens follow of a 2 wmo swap*)
But are we, as a category (Because what happen to me today may happen to all of you, i hope not, but it could) protected in some way? do we have some dignity for what we do? I consider myself, Eluo, Limee, and many others (sorry i can't think about much names atm) as artists, because what we make is art (it's not being arrogant, i wouldn't say so if some hundred of people didn't told me that) but people sees us as mapping packmules, we are just supposed to make maps (and release them) and shut up.
To me it's wrong, but what could i do? where nobody respects what we do, nobody cares, and everyone is ready to steal other people work?
You know better than me that all this thing is turning into a dick contest. I don't like it. But i can't do nothing except taking my leave from the model editing scene (partially, i'll still stay here and i'll show some screens to time to time)
What's the point of this huge wall of text? i needed to out my feelings about that story, because i'm building up too much anger inside to be honest.
Well that's all, i wrote all this wall of text as a flow, but i would like to know what you think.
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First of all, I read the first line of the textwall, and I was like: ''Oh shit'' already. It's really saddening to see you leave the model editing scene, you're one of the greatest artists I've seen in the scene, and you were one of the few that inspired me to start worldbuilding myself.
While I'm not a well known worldbuilder, nor a really good one, I'm afraid for people leeching my (coming) work. There's almost no way of protectin your work, sadly. The only effective way of protecting your work is by creating your own continent on a new map. I've succesfully made some (shit) worldbuilds that way without them being leeched just because people won't be able to use it on retail (even though that's not possible at the moment due to Cataclysm) and serveradmins are often not up to add the mapID to the server for just a couple of people. Sadly this all reduces the work you can do, because your work in for example Stromgarde is great, but it's on Azeroth and easily leechable.
Also, MMOwned fucks up things around the worldbuilding scene alot, the reputation system for example, while it's great to be a contributor or something, it shouldn't come with a reputation system. People without reputation are often being douched on.
Personally, I'd love to see you starting a custom continent/project. Why? As I said it's hard to leech that, people might leech it for their own repack, but they'll get bored after a while once they've explored it without NPCs, quests etc. These projects also offer a chance for custom lore (which could be related to WoW, or not, all up to you), and personally I think that is something that's limited when changing areas in Azeroth, Outland and Northrend.
I have to say, I haven't seen any work from modcraft being leeched yet, though you can easily protect your screenshot by adding something like ''SirFranc of Modcraft'' on it.
Anyways, sad to see you go ;(.
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I guess you're pretty much right about all of it.
I especially agree with you on the artist part, because it is a type of art which sadly not many people are able to handle right (there are maybe 3-5 people who create beautiful worldbuilds although it isn't that hard, and the rest just suck)
While sites like MMowned just had "Model Editing" clashed into one category, here at Modcraft we created all these different categories because they are all part of WoW modding and it is completely stupid to smash it all into one category, because it deserves more.
I must admit that I am losing my patience though. Seeing as Eluo (and many others such as Steff and Tigu, including myself) put so much effort in answering questions and creating tutorials there should be much more than a handful of people who can handle the artisimal part of modding (including modelling, texture creation, design, music) but no...there aren't. This scene, though a few years (2-3 if I'm correct) still features a vast majority of users completely lacking any skills at all - first of all what it seems most of them lack brains.
This might add a new aspect to your thread and I hope you don't mind, but it's something that has bothered me for such a long time and I've yet only spoken to Eluo and only a few others about it:
You can't even dare to compare this modding scene with other games.
Games far less famous than WoW contain modding scenes where this giant majority of the members of the WoW modding scene would only be smiled upon.
So, there's this giant lack of skill or at least of people with mediocre skill in whatever (although there are much more capable scripters than artists)
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I report the answer of Kurious from MMOWNED, that made me wanting to strangle him on behalf of all of us:
Re: Leech - Request
Originally Posted by sirfranc
i Actually posted screenshots of my work actually, and i always taught people how to model edit.
As i said, if the thread gets opened again i'll never release anything anymore, and i'll take my leave from the model editing scene, since this is the situation, it's not a threat, just a statement.
Needless to say that other model editors such as Eluo, Limee, and many others, who i always helped when they got leeched and they helped me when i got leeched, will greatly frown upon this decision as some of them are already doing.
As i said earlier, screenshots does not equal a release as i see it. If you leave the ME scene then it is ur decision not mine. So they frown upon the decision on having the thread deleted, damn I knew model editors were whiners(shown on MANY COUNTLESS occassions) but this beats me lol.
Originally Posted by sirfranc
You're wrong on thinking that THIS KIND OF STUFF is what brings life, because when one model editor gets leeched or ripped of his stuff like that the other model editors as well are less likely to trust the community and release their work, and if you don't believe me, check yourself how many things are actually downloadable between the model edits, if i am forced to release my stuff, i don't see why everybody else hasn't to. This is just going to make the model editors to be more harsh and less trustful ( i speak about the real model editors, not the 2 tree edit noobs that will be happy to download my stuff from a spammer - because he's a spammer, not an actual user - and claim it as their own, this is not model editing, is a noob fest) the result will be: even less stuff downloadable if that's what happens AND the community is not giving a damn to protect its users interests.
Release their work, once again you never released it... and ur signature even says that you wont give out edits.
No one is forced to release their stuff, but when it is spread on other sites (bringing ppl there) then we will have it released here, one way or the other. Just as the 100k g/hr post. Since you havent released jack, except some measly screenshots(my opinion) then i dont see it as a problem when that wont change...
Originally Posted by sirfranc
Said that, do what you want to do, i don't give a damn anymore, i was preparing a 500 mb patch with a ton of new stuff, but this thing happened will just make me NOT release anything, not even on my server (Since they stole it from there) and the result is that everyone is screwed but me, since i can make a new stromgarde 5 times as cool as the ripped one, and i won't never release it, who's got damaged then? not me certainly.
LOL the big old ... "Yeah I was planning to release alotta crap, but then this happened and i wont now" sry it gets more and more old everytime we hear that bullshit as staff.. You said earlier that you wouldnt release anything, so why should you have changed ur mind just before this happened..
You can make a big stromgarde, who cares, and not release it - just like you are not releasing the ones you already make.
So who is being screwed because of that? ME or MMOwned ?`No cause nothing is changed...
You are saying that you dont care, so i will open the thread now.
Fact is, we have no idea what sparked panda to release this, just that he said that you guys screwed him over, so why should we trust you and not him?
I found that most offensive.
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We here at Modcraft don't laugh at MMowned for no reasons you know ;)
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We here at Modcraft don't laugh at MMowned for no reasons you know ;)
That's why i'm going to stick to Modcraft, after that answer i feel most insulted really
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We here at Modcraft don't laugh at MMowned for no reasons you know ;)
That's why i'm going to stick to Modcraft, after that answer i feel most insulted really
Yay!
:D
Hey i really feel terribily sorry for you :/ I can imagine how much of a pain in the ass it would be to loose all the great stuff you made. I can't think of anything that would help you over this right now, but my advice is: Don't let yourself put down too much by such scaumbag. Keep on doing the stuff you like , because he never will be able to stop your flow of creativity and your passion for this.
Best wishes!
Eluo
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Kurios on MMOwned is still pissed by us whiny model editors -- as we really are.
You for example are whining about someone mirroring your own upload and naming it ripping while its just "I went to his site, downloaded a file and pushed it somewhere while also complaining about the one making it.".
There is no harm in this except for advertisment of your content as he also claims its awesome.
The only bad thing about it is the insult.
I love how people hate me for stating the obvious and nothing more.
People can still download the oh-so-bad ripoff from your own forums.
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decrypt them (even tough i just added a simple .exe check he removed)
I can open the MPQ from your forum and extract it without any problem. I don't see any encryption here.
and make them downloadable to the public.
Having the file on your forum IS PUBLIC. Same goes for "release it or let him to it": You _DID_ release it.
deserves to die (he does)
Nobody deserves to die for mirroring a file online.
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There's almost no way of protectin your work, sadly. The only effective way of protecting your work is by creating your own continent on a new map.
There are ways to "protect" it. Way better ones than moving mas to a new map id.
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I left "the scene" two years ago. See you around again soon.
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Kurios on MMOwned is still pissed by us whiny model editors -- as we really are.
You for example are whining about someone mirroring your own upload and naming it ripping while its just "I went to his site, downloaded a file and pushed it somewhere while also complaining about the one making it.".
There is no harm in this except for advertisment of your content as he also claims its awesome.
The only bad thing about it is the insult.
I love how people hate me for stating the obvious and nothing more.
People can still download the oh-so-bad ripoff from your own forums.
I left "the scene" two years ago. See you around again soon.
It's mostly about advertisement, i used a good bluff at that time if you really want to know, people actually believed it was encrypted and wasn't used out of CoA in fact, now that bluff is no more, and there isn't anymore a concept behind the fact that THAT material is actually belonging to me, people says "oh i got it on a random site" not CoA site.
And as well being offended on posts and public sites isn't really in the top list of what i like.
I did release it, but not on MMOWNED. that what's count for Kurious, i released it FOR MY SERVER. CoA had this gread advantage of having a patch for their own, now it doesn't.
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If I may, I'd like to add something.
The issue with most "moders" these days (especially WoW moders) is the fact that they have such easy access to tools and materials. The problem is that most of these moders have to much ambition and not enough dedication (and also, lack of planning) to create something, anything, worth while. This is why we see so many poor and sub-par creations by communities like MMOwned, because they have such easy access to the tools. I find it is a good idea that you guys are releasing the beta only to those who you trust and know are doing something to help you. Of course, I have yet to prove myself, but that is a whole 'nother issue which has set me back quite a few times. I don't consider my work professional grade (at the moment at least), though truthfully it hasn't been finished yet. I can see the view point from both sides (from both SirFranc and MMOwned) but I will keep that from this topic as it won't help the discussion. Anyways, happy modding! And remember; don't show what you don't plan on releasing, that's all I'm going to say ;)
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IAnyways, happy modding! And remember; don't show what you don't plan on releasing, that's all I'm going to say ;)
Funny fact, MMowned ME section would be empty according to that. xD
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I totally agree to ToyokaX
If u rly like modding than u shoud keep doin it,just dn relese anywhere,just to guyz u trust
And u shoud say all guyz that say its easy: if u think job im doing here is easy,than try to do it urself.
Dont quit ur work just becouse of few nabs that think they are something,every normall guy shoud always say who made it when he post ur work somewhere.
P.S. Sry if i alrdy posted this somewhere,i got some pop up and didnt know what it ment xD
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The issue with most "moders" these days (especially WoW moders) is the fact that they have such easy access to tools and materials. The problem is that most of these moders have to much ambition and not enough dedication (and also, lack of planning) to create something, anything, worth while. This is why we see so many poor and sub-par creations by communities like MMOwned, because they have such easy access to the tools. )
No for example starcraft and warcraft have much better editors and tools and much easier access to them, and there are much more good maps, models etc. So it's not a problem with having easy access but with having bad tools with people having to less brain and skill to use them probably.
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The issue with most "moders" these days (especially WoW moders) is the fact that they have such easy access to tools and materials. The problem is that most of these moders have to much ambition and not enough dedication (and also, lack of planning) to create something, anything, worth while. This is why we see so many poor and sub-par creations by communities like MMOwned, because they have such easy access to the tools. )
No for example starcraft and warcraft have much better editors and tools and much easier access to them, and there are much more good maps, models etc. So it's not a problem with having easy access but with having bad tools with people having to less brain and skill to use them probably.
Take also count of the playerbase of both game, WoW is designed for the masses, especially the little fat kids that want to feel someone with their shining epic gear or fapping on some naked elf.
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This:
people having to less brain and skill to use them probably.
and that:
Take also count of the playerbase of both game, WoW is designed for the masses, especially the little fat kids that want to feel someone with their shining epic gear or fapping on some naked elf.
I guess there's nothing more to add.
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Just wanna post my input to the whole situation.
This thread is really starting to grind my gears, to be honest.
I've been around MMOwned for a pretty long time, though I haven't made a name for myself, I've seen a lot. I've seen AZO's awesome edits when Noggit was only limited to 1.12, (However, these edits are pretty much obsolete compared to the present, still awesome, however), and ~SinX's attempts at bringing a some 'art' back into the 2.4. (Good edits; but once again, obsolete). Present day; SirFranc is one of the FEW good modeleditors remaining (I don't want to make a list to make people feel excluded, but there are a majority on MMOwned, and here.) and as one of the few remaining, he is looked up to as a 'legend' per se . As said by SirFranc, I'm sure anyone would be pissed if their edits would be released to the public including myself.(May I remind you, when stuff is released to the public, it loses most if not all of its true meaning).
What I'm trying to say is that people shouldn't go around taking other people work to get credit. It's immoral and wrong. and to clear up another little problem, SirFranc (as well as others) only release screenshots of their work to hype up the community, to get support with the project, and to get some feedback, whether it be positive, or negative. I really don't believe KuR was in the right when he said the things he said, hell, tbh, I never really liked the admins on MMOwned, Ket being excluded, as I never really hated him.
One last thing to be learned here though, while people like SirFranc are using these 'User-made' tools like Noggit and Taliis, the creators of the tools usually get little to no credit, in fact, without them, Worldbuilding would cease to exist in its current form. However, a message to Schumpf, without Cryect, your program would be nowhere.
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However, a message to Schumpf, without Cryect, your program would be nowhere.
Without Cryect this whole community would not exist.
Without ObscuR, Z., DG., linghuye etc. this whole scene would not exist. Not at all.
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However, a message to Schumpf, without Cryect, your program would be nowhere.
Without Cryect this whole community would not exist.
Without ObscuR, Z., DG., linghuye etc. this whole scene would not exist. Not at all.
Hm... Point taken Schlumpf...
@OnTopic: Yes, I agree with pretty much everyone here. It IS fcking annoying seeing your stuff being ripped by people who thinks they are "oh so good". And yes, I agree with TheBug regarding MMOwned's reputation system. I don't consider myself a 'good' Model Editor, I consider myself decent. And despite my continues sharing and releasing of world builds, treepath editings, reskins, model swapping, etc. I am still considered "not important" on MMOwned by some people. That is, partly, because people forget to rep when liking stuff, and partly just because they think they are god, because they are higher ranked than me. This is really pissing me off. I have pretty much left MMOwned too, and now sticks to this forum.
Last thing I have to say is, lets try and keep this forum on a low profile. I mean, try not to get too many none-ME'ers on it. Its just going to be another leeching-fest. That said, I believe I have expressed myself fully. And Franc? Keep the good work up, will ya? We all love you, don't let yourself go down because a few idiots can't make their own stuff x)
Thanks
Keta
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We started this form bacaus of this points. To creat an alternative home for real worldbuilders.
If me guys will get here and start to bug we will delete them.
The real problem i see in the WoW modding community is that it dont happend that many guys can hold together, start a project togehter and work all on it without on standing behind and push sometimes his boot into some asses :)
To mod WoW is a realy big and great taks. And as the most do this beside all the other stuff we have to do called life, time is sometimes a problem. I am now for over 3 years active in this szene and i never seen some finished work
Do you think that this will happen someday?
What do you think could we do to make it happen?
What do you think can you do to make it happen?
Thats why I started marum to create an open for all project to bring some manpower togehter. But this also did not work I tink. Some guys said they will do something but never send some finished or even started stuff that I could add to the server.
So how we could handel this?
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We started this form bacaus of this points. To creat an alternative home for real worldbuilders.
If me guys will get here and start to bug we will delete them.
The real problem i see in the WoW modding community is that it dont happend that many guys can hold together, start a project togehter and work all on it without on standing behind and push sometimes his boot into some asses :)
To mod WoW is a realy big and great taks. And as the most do this beside all the other stuff we have to do called life, time is sometimes a problem. I am now for over 3 years active in this szene and i never seen some finished work
Do you think that this will happen someday?
What do you think could we do to make it happen?
What do you think can you do to make it happen?
Thats why I started marum to create an open for all project to bring some manpower togehter. But this also did not work I tink. Some guys said they will do something but never send some finished or even started stuff that I could add to the server.
So how we could handel this?
What I personally think would work best is to start with edits of Blizzard's content, and work on a custom continent besides that. SirFranc's work attracts a lot of interested people for example. This way you'll have playable edits already for people, meanwhile you might attract people who want to work on a custom continent meanwhile. While adding races, classes and lore. This way you might be able to release it and in the end just dump Blizz's content. But this way you keep people satisfied and I believe if you see people enjoying your own content (even if it's just edits of Blizz's content) it's quite some motivation to keep going.
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For me this is no option. (I dont like the wow story and it is illegal to provide a server with blizzard content on it. I am not young enough to take such risk ;) )
But other people also start on it and dont get it done so fare. Franc and Eluos work could be the first that realy will see a running server :)
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Sad to read this Franc, I used to play on your server but I decided not to play due to my low anger management (I were Artimus Devaneaux) and your work is pretty much what made me try model editing :P Anyway hope that CoA will contiune forward I am still visiting the forums sometimes.
May comeback when everyone have forgot about me :S
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Sad to read this Franc, I used to play on your server but I decided not to play due to my low anger management (I were Artimus Devaneaux) and your work is pretty much what made me try model editing :P Anyway hope that CoA will contiune forward I am still visiting the forums sometimes.
May comeback when everyone have forgot about me :S
And you managed to manage your anger too :P
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This is so sad, sometimes I'd just like to strangulate leechers, or well for the most time actually.
I'm practicing for creating wonderful world buildings but it's hard without the knowledge, especially when there's always some sort of program that stops working correctly for me. Just as a example today I spent 3 hours getting Noggit working and Taliis is still bugging with the objects.
I'd like to know what those leechers are thinking when they're leaking content they've in no way been creating. I would for sure feel ashamed, knowing that I stole this from someone else - especially when it's from a server that's in development.
I wish you good luck with withdrawing those threads, and so far I have realised that the only secure place to release things i here at modcraft.
Thank you for sharing this with us.