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A realistic after-Warcraft III server

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Amaroth:
Work on yourself, show others that you are serious about this project by actually starting to work on it. Its really pain in the *** to work for someone who has no idea wth are you talking about when it comes to your job and its really huge pain in the *** to basically lead project which is not your own for someone, who simply isn't enough experienced to be real leader, but is still at least an "owner".


Finish something on your own and become leader, not just owner. Don't expect others to do everything for you. Otherwise you will have pretty hard time finding and/or keeping some really experienced devs and you will have even much harder time actually finishing project and releasing it. I would always preffer to make my own project instead of doing someone other's project for him instead of him.
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About project's concept, here we go, its exactly like I thought. Huge expectations, loads of great ideas... But no clue how time-consuming and hard to make those things are. WoW was made by hundreds of professionals, tested by thousands of testers. You have a few random internet guys. Even a good team of experienced and hard-working developers (3-4 hours per day, not 3/4 hours per week) would be making this happen a few years. While I like your ideas, you seem to be wanting to climb on Mt. Everest while the highest more hill than mountain ever climbed by you had height around 1500 metres.

If you want me to point out things which are really nearly impossible to do - its especially reshaping of whole world (not even mentioning making a new one). 2-3 weeks of hard work for one zone, don't expect less, if you want whole zone reshaped. And thats just noggit work, then comes quest design, NPC and gob spawning...

Making a whole new spell (and talent/skill?) system is something extremely abitious, too. Like I said, you have few random internet kids and some overgrown kids. You won't get new spell system. You will much more likely get bunch of half-working spells with absolutely ridiculous (no) balance.

Thirst and hunger - while this system is quite easy to make, I personaly always hated this, and very, very much. When I'm playing a game, I want to be entertained. I want to do something I can't in real life. Eat, dring, p**s and s***t... eh, I can do such things in real life. In the end, such systems tend to be just another, useless burden for players to deal with. Much better is some system to encourage them to do something for realistic gameplay. Why having debuffs for not eating? Having buffs (Well Fed, but empowered) for the same would be much, much more player-friendly. Similiar applies to death system. I will give you one another example here. Blizzard wanted to give players a lot of experience from killing, but this exp boost would be reduced whenever they were playing for longer time (exp fatigue system). This idea was very unsuccesful and hated. But then, Blizzard changed it, and rested bonuses came. In the end, players were leveling up at the SAME SPEED, but were happy for rested bonuses, were looking at them like they were some sort of gift and loved them. Exp fatigue looked to them like bullshit to annoy them. But, again, in the end, there was no difference, just that players were much more happy.

Martinus:

--- Quote from: "Amaroth" ---"Work on yourself...

... much more happy."
--- End quote ---

Greetings, Amaroth!

If I am correct, you are the one who was working, as I have seen in the videos, on concepts of Arathor, Erutia and Nimer. I appreciate your reaction on this matter, as a reaction of the one experienced and skilled in these doings. I am, therefore, recieving and understand your message as a valued and competent one.

I thank you in advance for answering many of my questions, despite they were not explicitly stated. Your reasoning have provided me with the insight for which I was looking for, as it is a key point in determining the possibility of realisation of such a idea.

Personally, I do not aspire for owner- or leadership as much as for seeing such a thing done. I am just sometimes intrigued how would it be to see a World of Warcraft more in accord with its predecessors - to know that it is indeed it.

It is few years since I have tryed modding - if I can call it so - in World of Warcraft, but I was not even able to get through the programs. Main factors were that my computer was not sufficient and I have had not enough knowledge of their workings. Therefore I am at least hoping that someone else might be inspired with the ideas and incorporate it into his work.

In relation to your review of the concept:

I restate the notion contained within my introductory paragraphs of this message - I appreciate and value your review. I now have a better insight into the current modding possiblities and potentials, as I am not familiar with the situation within this kind of community.

I have supposed that it will possibly be a project, which might take years to finish. So, as the problem is being discussed in detail, I now specify some of the ideas:

1. Reshaping the World
As it would be more difficult to create a new World (from nothing, as I understand it, in contrast to just working on the existing one), the concept can be reduced on just reshaping the existing one. But the requirements shoud be the same:
a) from global perspective to be in shape of the world as depicted in the image contained within my first     message;
b) from regional perspective the geographical dispositions shoud correspond those seen in maps of Warcraft III - I;
c) localities should be based on the dispositions from scenarios of Warcraft III.

2. Quest design
I would like that there would be some repeatable quests, which would make a main body of questing (as depicted in the case of an "orc character and his starting possiblities"). These quests will serve to secure economic standing of a character as well as social one (after certain amount of repetition, Player can have access to more difficult and responsible quests).

The other type of quests will be a class-determination ones: Player can serve a local blacksmith by providing him with materials, forging or doing additional work regarding given proffesion. Through this process he will learn himself to be a blacksmith. The same will work with the magecraft or combat skills. It can be seen even in the original game, but here, the interaction, dependency and depth will be more present.

3. Spell, talent and skill system
I would not like to stress on balance, or at least in the way it is solved in the original game. It is one of the factors I believe were implemented at the expense of the lore, situation and dispositions in the World (1 versus 1 faction system in order to ensure balance, equal number of races, relative distance kept between the starting areas and their location as well as the location of other areas and more, unique role of classes [each class is in principle based on the same type of game, only visual effect is and type of combat is different but each class ultimatelly follows the same route {mage hunting pigs, paladin starting as an ordinary peasant with a wooden hammer, warlock included in society in which he is lore-wise unacceptable} and does the same]).

The system of spells should be as following:
a) Each character starts (as stated) as a generic member of a given race, with basic (generic) abbilities to perform (simple strikes, blocks, kicks). In addition for imagination: Tauren will have more life, be faster and deal more damage, than a gnome, but this inbalance can be solved by few explosives the gnome creates.
b) The effectiveness of an ability will increase with greater strength of Character, which in turn is increased by performing physical exercise (dealing or even recieving damage will increase strength).
c) Spells will be learned from trainers or objects or might be learned by self-training. The system can be based on system of professions (blacksmithing, fishing...). There will be ingredients for spells, some may provide insight on functioning. Increased skilling and using of spells increases maximum skill which in turn automatically teaches new spells in the process with the respective description of requirements (reagents, locations...) to cast a spell. The same system may apply for normal combat abilities (punches, kicks, blocks...).
d) I have faith in those random juvenile or maturing persons.

4. Thirst, hunger and burdens
a)The system of thirst and hunger may require to eat 3 times a day in order to evade the effects of the Thirst "debuff" (if I understand this term correctly) and the Hunger "debuff".  It means that the character will be fed or not thirsty for about 6 hours after eating or drinking and be safe from the effects of hunger or thirst respectively.
b) In addition, hunger and thirst will not be fatal - they will only drain Energy (mana), which is required for health regeneration and perfoming actions (attacks, absorbing damage, casting spells). Therefore the player in the sake of his own aspirations should search for food and drink. If not, he/she can play, but will be more vulnerable.
c) If someone would wish to hasten life-regeneration process, he, or she, should search for special means to do so: first aid (as in reality), healing spells, heling herbs (which can also feed the Character) and other means.

This concept seems to me more logical and realistic

5. Death system
This concept is more complex and I can reserve a particular place for it, for, as you have stated also in relation to the other ideas, it may prove to be a very difficult one to perform. So I will explain this only if a sufficient interest is shown.


I thank you for your analysis, Amaroth - know that I highly appreciate it. As I have noted: I have had this idea in my mind for a longer time and now I have decided to to discuss it with competent persons for their opinion.

spik96:
That's the project of my dreams. But never forget dreams are dreams.
Divide what you want to do in steps.
Each "step" must be playable. Not perfect, but playable. Like major updates.
There are small edits than can add to classic Warcraft lore consistency :
- Make Night Elves and Undead unplayable. (Remove from the UI if you can but NOT a priority).
- Put Night Elves neutral and Undead hostile to everybody.
- Put other Horde and Alliance races neutral between them.
- Edit the World with details. Details. You should not need to move existing NPCs due to your change, because you'll do that later.
- So, do the light things before adding new content. The idea should be : keep what is good enough.

Then, you can add content. New quests. But not only new quests. You should start by editing current non logical quests. Add first in the texts what you want to see in game. Only once the story is told you can start to make it appear live.

Think small or you'll never get something big.
Plus : if your work is public the division by steps could allow someone else to take up your work if you appeared to leave the community, die, or whatever.

Amaroth:
Well Martinus, I can only wish you to make as many dreams real as possible. In the end, you just need to love what you are working on and to not forget why are you doing that. Like I said, there are still plenty of both good and possible to be made ideas, you will see how succesful you will be. I'm looking forward for updates, once again, good luck.

Martinus:

--- Quote from: "spik96" ---"That's the project of my dreams..."
--- End quote ---

Greetings, spik96,

I thank also you for your contribution to the topic. I see that you align yourself with the general idea - you are more than welcome here.

I admit that the actual methodics with exact steps has not been chosen yet. It is why I have also intended to present it to you for opinions and reviews for potential additional ideas and means of realisation. As you have possibly noticed, I am upgrading my initial post (in its footing is a time and reason of the update) with the ongoing discussion and responding according to the queries, as many of my ideas may not come to my mind in the given moment and it may take a longer to time to present a whole concept, while some details may not be neccessary to present here and can be solved afterwards, thus saving time for efective discussion.

Also, I am considering playability of each idea from perspective of a player (as I was only a player), thus I am working only with the phenomenal side of gaming mechanics and am not familiar with their actual technical character and workings. This is why I also submit this matter here to a critique from those of you who are skilled and knowledgable in technical side of gaming mechanics, as it can be seen from the contribution of the respectable Amaroth, who has provided an insight exactly from this perspective.

Regarding the merit of your kind entry:

1. Playable races

1.1 The Night Elves
I would like to keep the Night Elves playable. The reasons are as following:
a) Their role is already well established in Warcraft III.
b) Their society and setting provides an unique, exclusive and important experience.
c) In relation the role and importance mentioned in the previous points, the whole situation of Northen Kalimdor creates a conditions for specific kind of gameplay.
d) They have, at least, my favor.
e) Also, if the "Monolith" (When Creeps Attack) idea will be incorporated, I would like to provide an experience which may be taken more personally from the position of a Night Elf. This will also be one of the major topics for Night Elves.

1.2 Undead
I express my identification with your proposition, however, with the following positions for consideration:
a) Undead Scourge, probably, shall not be a playable faction. However, I have also considered this point in the mentioned Death system, which may actually allow the player (as a Ghost)  to be risen by the powers of the Scourge and possibly join them (The Character Ghost will not have Life, only Energy. Its Energy diminishes if moving away from its corpse [Ghost starts at the corpse], and replenish while at the corpse. It can, also, increase or replenish its Energy by using unique abilities on other Ghosts [players or non-playable charactes, or even on living beings] and draining their Energy or relocating to the other sources which radiate Energy. With more Energy, the more abilities are accesible to the Ghost, some of which allow interaction with the Material world [dealing damage to the living Characters, appearing as a visible Ghost for a period of time and other]. In relation to the Undead Scourge, the player can be found to be dead by the Lich King [in that case a Game Master controlling the Lich King {and possibly the Scourge operations}], or other necromancers and offered Enegy or revival in exchange for servitude.).
b) The Forsaken can be a playable faction, but their role and position will be minor to the one they hold in original game. They will be alone and fighting a desperate and rebelant battle for survival in the ruins of the former Kingdom of Lordaeron.

2. Relations
Neutrality between the Horde and former Human Expedition forces should exist. The same applies in their relations with the Night Elves. The Undead Scourge and the Forsaken will be hostile to each other and any other faction. Inhabitants living in Lordaeron, Khaz'Modan and Azeroth will be unaware of the situation in Kalimdor (except of those who have had an encounter with the Night Elves on their hunt for Illidan). In relation to this there will be no Night Elves', new Horde's, or Theramore forces' presence on the eastern continents.

3. World Editing
I understand, but even that is not within my capacity to perform and yes - if there will be any work done, I would like it to be secure for the developement and use of others.


--- Quote from: "Amaroth" ---Well Martinus, I can only wish you to make as many dreams real as possible. In the end, you just need to love what you are working on and to not forget why are you doing that. Like I said, there are still plenty of both good and possible to be made ideas, you will see how succesful you will be. I'm looking forward for updates, once again, good luck.
--- End quote ---

I thank you again, Amaroth,

even if not all ideas will be incorporated - especially those complex ones - some vital for lore re-habilitation can be included. I can conceptually divide the idea into three models, if considering the possibilities for execution:

1. Model: the most demanding, with the World created larger and most systems incorporated.
2. Model: more demanding, with only World re-shaped and some systems incorporated.
3. Model: The World remains nearly untouched, with just minor terrain and object changes, only few story related quests will be changed and NPCs relocated, removed or added)

In that 3. Model of the World, those minor changes can touch, for instance, the following:
a) NPCs at Tidus Stair (The Barrens) will be removed and replaced by Samuro, the Orc Blademaster.
b) Raptors and Lions in the Barrens will be removed and replaced respectively by Wildkin (Moonkin/Owlkin/Owlbear creatures). Also the Raptor Grounds to the west from Northwatch Hold will represent a place, where Samuro fought with Bloodbeak, thus serving as a Wildkin nesting place.
c) Thunder Lizards will be green.
d) Valley of Trials may better serve as Thunder Ridge than the actual Thunder Ridge, wich can be a place where a Kobold, Nogrinn Onetooth was.
e) Skull Rock can be Orgrimmar Tunnels, with Kobolds and the Horde mining and dredging operations.
f) The place where Rexxar battled warlocks can be to the south from the Skull Rock, on the solitary and unpopulated mountain with cliffs and rocks.
g) Tiragarde Keep should be transformed to a more simple establishment, resmebling the one seen in the mission "To Tame a Land". The Humans there, however, will be only loading the remains and preparing to depart from Durotar to Theramore.
h) Dustwind Cave above Razor Hill can be The Beast Den, where Rexxar fought Quilboars and Satyrs. Now, it can serve as a place where the last surviving Satyr of the mentioned sect resides and reanimated the Quilboars. The Satyr can be Bazzalan and undead Quilboars can be used from Razorfen Downs.
h) Murlocs can live in Southfury River.
h) Echo Isles will have creatures like Bats, Hydras, Murlocs (enslaved by the evil Mur'gul Tyrant). Hydra, Sea Giant, Spider Crab Behemoth can be like a minor world bosses there. This part is meant to be a reference to the Echo Isles in Warcraft III. Aditionally, there will be no rebelious Trolls. The destroyed village on Echo Isles (pre-Pandaria) is the one destroyed by Admiral Proudmoore's fleet. The one, which originally contains Zalazane, will be a normal Troll settlement with Vol'jin.
i) Furbolgs will be better defined by color: White Furbolgs will be the Polar ones, living in Northrend in Warcraft III. Brown Furbolgs will live in most of Northern Kalimdor, while the Black Furbolgs will live in Darkshore.
j) Dark Trolls should be incorporated.
k) Nighthaven will be a Night Elf capital.
l) Black Dragonflight, which can be encountered through out the Central Kalimdor, will be based in Maraudon, and might be a source behind the Centaur aggresive nature.
m) And more.

Indeed, I will upload the content and also be looking forward to your opinions.

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