Modcraft - The community dedicated to quality WoW modding!
Community => General => Topic started by: Steff on August 21, 2015, 12:06:55 pm
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I chatted now with some members that realy gave some Arguments why the Name difference was a good thing.
So I think.. let us just ask you.
The plan is, if you poll for it to have contributors shown in a different color like normal users.
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I think there should be an option for "Put all usergroups back exactly as they were."
This is less about personal preference and more about the community's success.
The way I see it, this has divided the community into two groups:
The people who are okay with the color changes, and the people who are really pissed off.
I've yet to see many people who actually wanted this. The new color will only do harm.
Also, as I understand it, the colors were changed because they confuse newbies.
I disagree, and the people who helped build this community are more important anyway.
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Being a lazy person, I will simply put again what I wrote on the other thread for those who didn't read it. If you already did, that will save you time.
I would like to say that removing name colors is not a very good idea ! To make it clear I'll analyse more precisely the effects they had on the community, then you'll understand why so many people care about them.
First of all, the name color is a symbolical distinction for a lot people, it's like saying "you're part of the community, we recognize your effort". As we are social individuals, we tend to want these medals of merit ! The color becomes a carrot on a stick that insentivies participation in the forum. While I agree it would be better to have people participating for the sole purpose of general progression, you can't realisticaly expect everybody to be that mature.
You might fear the arrogance that could come from these colors, and feel they would make newer players more reluctant to join; or even confused about what the color means. But I would tend to think it's the contrary : The color helps them identify and organize people identity. You'll trust more easily someone who is marked as a developer or an advanced artist. If an advanced artist doesn't like a map, you'll know his opinion is more relevant, and is more likely to teach you things. Obviously, the content of a message is far more important, but still, the color gives the little touch that says "This guy knows what he's talking about". And that is not a bad thing, because it DOESN'T make other people reactions worthless either. It'll just help the member to understand there are several kinds of point of view.
Imagine a young guy who wants to create his own maps on Noggit, he'll tend to look more at the orange-colored name topics if he wants a reference. But, then, he'll also look at other people level designs. He'll then make his own opinion about what is better, and analyze what makes their maps better. The color simply makes him more aware of differences, and trust me, these are NOT as obvious as you could think they are. There are people who ask me level design advices because of the name color, prooving that it has a psychological impact that is good for the community.
So I understand your point of view that each indivual should be distinguished by his words and individual replies. But they should also be considered by their previous actions, and that is what the color was useful for.
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Regardless of what you do, please don't bring back the grey for regular members. It was painful to look at. Grey don't fit with the theme.
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Regardless of what you do, please don't bring back the grey for regular members. It was painful to look at. Grey don't fit with the theme.
I think the gray is still better than this light-blue. Much better.
Also gray fits with every theme as it's a shade, not a color. Just no more light-blue plox T_T
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The colors served me a bit like a landmark, now when I look at the index page with all same color, I feel a little bit lost.
And for the new members, there’s a legend under this forum, like all forums who have colors for names. :)
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I am glad that the majority of people share the same opinion as me on the colors. Speaking about color preferences, if you dislike some certain colour on the website, get Stylish browser extension. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/deta ... cffe?hl=ru (https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylish/fjnbnpbmkenffdnngjfgmeleoegfcffe?hl=ru" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
It is very easy to use, so that you can swap colors.
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"Yes, give us one color again."
"No, all the same color."
I'm not sure which option is which?
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I don't really care that much, I mean, the distinction in what peoples credibility towards skill is nice, but really; I just think the current blue is really gross lol...
Edit: I am bored so let's actually approach this from a different angle to draw out some ideas.
I think the fundamental problem with the action taken was more that it was somewhat of a punishment for those who had done something or at least anything for the community. You don't punish someone who gives, because they stop giving. In my opinion the correct idea would of been to encourage those that give, to give more.
When you think about it, at Modcraft we have 3 classes to define input to the community:
1. Guests
2. Members
3. Contributors
That seems way to vague and broad. I have done very little in comparison to stoneharry yet our title is the same. This then applies backwards for myself as someone who has contributed a little bit, compared to someone who has contributed nothing. Effectively your approach was an act of regression rather than progression in any sense of it. It would make more sense to encourage the Member to reach Contributor and the Contributor to reach something even higher.
You are right that it shouldn't be a motive, but removing motive altogether helps no one.
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"Yes, give us one color again."
"No, all the same color."
I'm not sure which option is which?
That's the point, to trick you. At the end of the day this is communism!
Everyone has done a good job so far voicing opinions and suggestions, great :)
Please continue voting everyone!
jk Chase
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If you put them back please don't invite everybody to them (specially aggressive people).
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I will in the future again be harder about snceless posts.
If it is not about the topic or constructiv. The post will just dissapeare.
Like in every good totalitary system :)
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I will in the future again be harder about snceless posts.
If it is not about the topic or constructiv. The post will just dissapeare.
Like in every good totalitary system :)
Don't get me wrong, but from my perspective it looks like you just posted a mostly non-constructive post in a completely unrelated thread about how you will no longer tolerate non-constructive or unrelated posts. Am I missing something?
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I don't get why people need some cosmetic reward based on someone's arbitrary evaluation to raise their epeen.
People who had coloured names certainly did not know or help more than non-coloured names.
Polls like this will always bias towards the many getting their epeen back.
I think schumpf put it well:
The fact that even though you have two huge banners of being special, but still you're complaining about the name's color, is just fucked up and shows how you don't give a fuck about the community and should probably have never got that rank to begin with. The rank is still there, just less easily confused with being a moderator. Nobody took away anything of you but a colored name. People still see you as being special. If you want to be more special than being special, then god, I can't help you. If you always did things only because of a color, not to help newcomers or something, imho you never deserved the rank to begin with.
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I don't get why people need some cosmetic reward based on someone's arbitrary evaluation to raise their epeen.
Just because you don't understand us doesn't mean we're wrong.
People who had coloured names certainly did not know or help more than non-coloured names.
On average they most certainly did. Philly, Phantom, Skarn, Valkryst to name a few. Steff and Schlumpf count too as their Developer color helped distinguish them from being only moderators.
Polls like this will always bias towards the many getting their epeen back.
Yes of course, and those people are also the most active members and most frequent contributors. They're also the people who have been around the longest and helped build this community.
As far as schlumpf's ramble is concerned, I'll once again state that nobody really cares about the banners underneath the names. And it's a part of WoW emulation culture to use colors for usergroups. Nobody here is confused about who is a moderator. There is a legend at the bottom of the page.
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I don't get why people need some cosmetic reward based on someone's arbitrary evaluation to raise their epeen.
Just because you don't understand us doesn't mean we're wrong.
People who had coloured names certainly did not know or help more than non-coloured names.
On average they most certainly did. Philly, Phantom, Skarn, Valkryst to name a few. Steff and Schlumpf count too as their Developer color helped distinguish them from being only moderators.
Polls like this will always bias towards the many getting their epeen back.
Yes of course, and those people are also the most active members and most frequent contributors. They're also the people who have been around the longest and helped build this community.
As far as schlumpf's ramble is concerned, I'll once again state that nobody really cares about the banners underneath the names. And it's a part of WoW emulation culture to use colors for usergroups. Nobody here is confused about who is a moderator. There is a legend at the bottom of the page.
Everything you say here is "can I get my pretty colours back". You don't actually give any reason. Community? What, you to make it like back in TBC and Burlex times where select individuals are worshipped as gods in the emulation community because apparently the community is that immature.
I really don't care to argue with random people on the Internet at the end of the day. Perhaps my opinion is wrong but I've certainly been here a very long time and experienced many different aspects of this "community". And I certainly think letting your "community", or player base, or whatever make decisions is pretty much the worst idea for any sort of cooperation/government/entity. People are stupid.
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There is really no reason to be this irate about colors. I'm not some greedy person as you seem so inclined to believe.
Honestly, you can take my badge and my color, I no longer deserve them as I've removed my contributions months ago. This isn't about me.
This is less about personal preference and more about the community's success.
I've been around the block a few times. I've seen what these colors can do to people in the many communites I've lead and the ones I've been a part of, including this one. Would you so blatantly deny the fact that cosmetics motivate people to participate and contribute?
Whether you agree with it being a good or bad motive is irrelevant. If we're having an honest discussion about the community's success then it needs to be carefully considered.
Do you want 5 good hearted people who share and expect nothing meaningful in return for their hardwork? Or do you want an army of people who do it for colors and the chance of this community thriving?
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There is really no reason to be this irate about colors. I'm not some greedy person as you seem so inclined to believe.
Honestly, you can take my badge and my color, I no longer deserve them as I've removed my contributions months ago. This isn't about me.
This is less about personal preference and more about the community's success.
I've been around the block a few times. I've seen what these colors can do to people in the many communites I've lead and the ones I've been a part of, including this one. Would you so blatantly deny the fact that cosmetics motivate people to participate and contribute?
Whether you agree with it being a good or bad motive is irrelevant. If we're having an honest discussion about the community's success then it needs to be carefully considered.
Do you want 5 good hearted people who share and expect nothing meaningful in return for their hardwork? Or do you want an army of people who do it for colors and the chance of this community thriving?
So far you two have made reasonable/valid statements, Stoneharry, Milly. I don't know neither of you as well as I'd like to (which is irrelevant because a moderator should be neutral), but I'll make a call based on what I know right now:
Milly, since you say you no longer contribute to this community, I think that you should no longer continue posting. This is a topic that concerns Modcraft and those who are concerned with Modcrafts success, structure, future, etc. Nothing personal Milly, I just think it is for the best and the most logical thing to do in this case :)
Stoneharry, let us try to be more considerate of others opinions, however irrelevant or 'stupid' one might think them to be. For example, some people think that a community (in any social aspect of life) ran by the community itself, which decides matters themselves and don't rely on a higher dictating power to govern them, is perfectly fine for them. Some don't, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.
What happens is that things can get out of hand and really we can simply avoid all this in the first place. So a solution -which has been proposed- is in effect: A voting poll
Debating is fine, when it is civilized. Yelling does not help. Your vote can speak for you.
To those that have voted already, thank you. To those that have not voted yet, please feel welcome to do so.
This poll is not yet over, I assume.
Thank you for understanding my points of view.
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Milly, since you say you no longer contribute to this community, I think that you should no longer continue posting. This is a topic that concerns Modcraft and those who are concerned with Modcrafts success, structure, future, etc. Nothing personal Milly, I just think it is for the best and the most logical thing to do in this case :)
What you say here contradicts everything I just stood for in this thread. I said that I removed the uploads that gave me a Contributor rank, not that I no longer contribute at all. As a matter of fact I'm here watching this forum and participating almost 16 hours a day, all week long. I help wherever I can so long as I know the answers, and I can honestly say that I genuinely care about the modding community. My arguments here are entirely about Modcraft's future.
By saying this to me, you're effectively stating that people without status probably should not speak here. It is condescending, unprofessional, and is in essence a counterproductive way to respond to a thread about ranks.
If Steff or whomever would like to restore my posts, I welcome them to do so. I do not have backups of these and whatever happened 3 months ago which you weren't even involved in should not invalidate my right to speak.
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There is really no reason to be this irate about colors. I'm not some greedy person as you seem so inclined to believe.
Honestly, you can take my badge and my color, I no longer deserve them as I've removed my contributions months ago. This isn't about me.
This is less about personal preference and more about the community's success.
I've been around the block a few times. I've seen what these colors can do to people in the many communites I've lead and the ones I've been a part of, including this one. Would you so blatantly deny the fact that cosmetics motivate people to participate and contribute?
Whether you agree with it being a good or bad motive is irrelevant. If we're having an honest discussion about the community's success then it needs to be carefully considered.
Do you want 5 good hearted people who share and expect nothing meaningful in return for their hardwork? Or do you want an army of people who do it for colors and the chance of this community thriving?
So far you two have made reasonable/valid statements, Stoneharry, Milly. I don't know neither of you as well as I'd like to (which is irrelevant because a moderator should be neutral), but I'll make a call based on what I know right now:
Milly, since you say you no longer contribute to this community, I think that you should no longer continue posting. This is a topic that concerns Modcraft and those who are concerned with Modcrafts success, structure, future, etc. Nothing personal Milly, I just think it is for the best and the most logical thing to do in this case :)
Stoneharry, let us try to be more considerate of others opinions, however irrelevant or 'stupid' one might think them to be. For example, some people think that a community (in any social aspect of life) ran by the community itself, which decides matters themselves and don't rely on a higher dictating power to govern them, is perfectly fine for them. Some don't, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.
What happens is that things can get out of hand and really we can simply avoid all this in the first place. So a solution -which has been proposed- is in effect: A voting poll
Debating is fine, when it is civilized. Yelling does not help. Your vote can speak for you.
To those that have voted already, thank you. To those that have not voted yet, please feel welcome to do so.
This poll is not yet over, I assume.
Thank you for understanding my points of view.
Reading your post is why I hate ranks.
"Look at me, I may be a moderator but MY OPINION".
I don't value your opinion and I don't agree with you. I don't think a poll is the correct solution - people are stupid.
Perhaps my posts come across as rude. They are just to the point, no beating around the bush. And cynical.
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Ok that's fine guys, I can't say I didn't try.
You are entitled to your opinions, to your points of view and to think you are always right. This includes the way you feel about what I said.
No hard feelings on my end, happy modding :)
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Couldn't care less.
If I'm interested in a person, it's because of his work, not because of the color of his username.
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Do you want 5 good hearted people who share and expect nothing meaningful in return for their hardwork? Or do you want an army of people who do it for colors and the chance of this community thriving?
As this is in the end what we have been doing for the last five years: yes
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. I don't think a poll is the correct solution - people are stupid.
Perhaps my posts come across as rude. They are just to the point, no beating around the bush. And cynical.
While I agree with you that numbers do not tell the truth about what is better, you can't just come with this overly arrogant point of view and disregard the general opinion. You must consider the fact that people might look at things differently. Let's go kind of off-topic, and take exemple from something more general that will help me getting on my point :
Let's imagine a friend of you is very angry because you forgot to wish him an happy birthday; you were not intending any harm, you just forgot : After all, it is just a day like any other else. You would feel like your friend is childish to be mad about that kind of things, and you would be right. Nevertheless, the birthday is a symbol of other values in his mind, by not wishing him an happy birthday, this is what he understands unconsciously : "I refuse your social code, I disregard your integrity as an individual and ignore your progression, you're not important to me".
Is it still stupid on his part ? Of course if it is, but since we're social animals, we must consider these things, and not act like if they don't exist. It's the same here : Even if you don't give any credit to these colors (or social ranking in general), it doesn't mean they are purely cosmetic. Milly isn't angry about losing the color itself, but losing what it implies : a symbol of social reconnaissance and an easy community classification.
Yet, a color has NEVER been the key for being worshiped : it is at the very most a way to help new people out knowing who's a developper, who's an artist, who is an useful active member, etc... The color is valorizing some kinds of message contents, yet its actual contribution is very small. In the end you will look at individuals specificaly and not these colors anymore. So yeah, I would understand people not caring about the subject, I don't care much about colors either, but I still think they are important.
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Couldn't care less.
If I'm interested in a person, it's because of his work, not because of the color of his username.
To further that, this site's name colors is not even an evaluation of skill or contribution as others suggested. I lost my name color because I made a comment that the gatekeepers to name colors didn't like. They removed it because of that, not because I suddenly became less skilled or contributed less.
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Couldn't care less.
If I'm interested in a person, it's because of his work, not because of the color of his username.
Agreed.
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Colors,ranks,badges are just to distinguish active users,contributors,moderators etc. from simple users, and when I see my name same with Milly or Stoneharry or any other contributor its wierd, considering what they and I have done.In my few posts I've seen that most of the comments are made by the contributors and yes I used to appreciate and pay attention to them much more than to the others, I want to say that coloured names don't make people better or "special" they are just what they are, contributors or moderators and I think it even makes it much easier for the newbies to understand easier who has done more and who less.
Btw a contributor remains a contributor no matter that he/she is not contributing anymore, that doesn't mean that he/she can't post anymore or all his/her posts should be deleted.English is not my native so forgive for any mistakes.
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Do you want 5 good hearted people who share and expect nothing meaningful in return for their hardwork? Or do you want an army of people who do it for colors and the chance of this community thriving?
As this is in the end what we have been doing for the last five years: yes
This is my only problem with this whole situation (minus the ugliness of the current blue): I have no idea wtf direction Modcraft is trying to go in?
One minute there is a post about encouraging people to write guides to attract audience and help out the new guys. The next you make it harder to distinguish between new and old or even if new people are around and active. Nor is there context about how this is integrated positively in the future, as if there was a plan more so than just lowering arrogance.
As far as I can tell, no one has commented on the index page, no one has mentioned that despite it being the most viewed page on the website (presumably), it is presented with a bunch of people replying to people. There are no badges, there are no titles, there is nothing but an average Joe, replying to an average Joe. Some new people will see that as less threatening, but a good deal more who have looked at numerous modding sites will assume it's leeches sucking on a dead corpse.
There is no context for a new person, they see what they see and their retention is generally based off that alone. They are not going to see a topic announcing everyone is equal here. They are going to see a board index, with what they will assume is filled with leeches.
Again, I would be fine with this whole thing if I knew that there was purpose behind it besides reducing dick tugging and morality. If I knew this would be integrated in some form of positive manner.
To top it off, everyone is so fucking negative. Stop replying to "The badges show skill" with "No they don't, they are too inaccurate for that". You are still discussing a topic being beaten to death, yet you in your negative response just opened and refused to humor the more positive approach written. If you have a problem with their accuracy why are you not striving to make more accurate and less arbitrary titles? Or for the love of god at least discussing it.
Why are we not discussing the future of this (on both fronts), I could write a program tonight that deletes system32 and release it in a week under a new account, new people would be none the wiser. What is the solution to that? Is there a plan to how tools will be regulated (and how newbies will know to trust it) and if not, why aren't we discussing that instead of this bullshit ego/no ego battle.
What I am trying to say is, there is no out-liner for this particular change, nor does it make any sense to be released pre-website change. Or at the very least, when the websites changes addressed in "Modcraft community" thread start occurring, how will issues like these be addressed then. I don't give two shits about whether "such and such" does or does not like peoples names having colors, I want to talk about whether the colors are good for Modcraft as a website, or better yet Modcraft as a future iteration of a website.
All of this for the sake of ego, be it the perspective of not liking the ego the titles bring, or the perspective of comfort of the ego in the titles. When realistically we are using screen names which are by nature a personification anyway...
As mentioned, I hate negative replies with 0 constructive input, so here is a suggestion:
I am unsure as to how many people came up with and discussed this change before it was put in place. But it clearly has flaws that were not discussed and planned for. Nor was the manner in which it was released and brought to everyone handled very well either.
What I propose is a small hidden forum (consisting of staff and a few more people) in which these can be discussed and fleshed out before being released including how to handle this publicly (A.K.A adding context to the future of this). Blizzard doesn't just have 3 management members go: Here's the patch changes, release it. They have a board of people discuss it after a series of specific people come up with the idea.
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from my point of view, i 'm don't care of colors on myself :), but it's helpful for recognizing members in their skill progress. Since beginning i'm still white and still happy with it. My vote is: yes keep the colors.
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Why are we not discussing the future of this (on both fronts),
We did
Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:26 am I started the thread.
I have written that i collect all the idea in the main post. There the color thing was noted many days.
And after i started doing the first point on the list. It started :)
Also as you can soo on the vote .. the contributor color will come back.
And I fear already about the discussion that the color dont fit :)
I want to get the best for this site. The problem is that members ahve opposit tast.
Thats why this is just a poll and the most votes will democraticly get it.
Thats why I don´t understand why there is anything to discuss.
- We got the request from some new guys that the colored names are irritetating
- We added to discuss list
- Waited some days and no post against it
- Changed it
- Got request that it is not good
- Did a poll to let the bigger side decide
Done.
And now. Any other ideas and suggestions how to make Modcraft better.
For new people
For old people
And also offers to do some of this work is always welcome ;)
Please use the Community thread for this. This is closed.
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Can you tell me why did you even changed name tags ? old mechanism was good ( except situation when advanced artist wtag was given to total noob )
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Why are we not discussing the future of this (on both fronts),
We did
Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:26 am I started the thread.
I have written that i collect all the idea in the main post. There the color thing was noted many days.
And after i started doing the first point on the list. It started :)
Also as you can soo on the vote .. the contributor color will come back.
And I fear already about the discussion that the color dont fit :)
I want to get the best for this site. The problem is that members ahve opposit tast.
Thats why this is just a poll and the most votes will democraticly get it.
Thats why I don´t understand why there is anything to discuss.
- We got the request from some new guys that the colored names are irritetating
- We added to discuss list
- Waited some days and no post against it
- Changed it
- Got request that it is not good
- Did a poll to let the bigger side decide
Done.
And now. Any other ideas and suggestions how to make Modcraft better.
For new people
For old people
And also offers to do some of this work is always welcome ;)
Please use the Community thread for this. This is closed.
Theres a reason why the population of countries do not do mass votes on issues. People are selfish and stupid and it does not necessarily benefit. Pure Democracy is so flawed. The uneducated outweigh the educated.
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there are countrys doint it. but we dont want base political discussions. i likenthe solution to now only have contributors colored. let's move on to next mass discussion topic ;)