Making map creation more popular

[iindigo]

What would it take to make WoW Map editing/creation more common? Other games have very active modding communities. Even other Blizzard games like Warcraft III and Starcraft II have more maps than can be counted, and some are extremely creative and push the limits of the RTS engines. One of the most impressive turns Starcraft II into a third-person RPG complete with quests and raids.

Obviously WCIII and SCII maps are officially supported by Blizzard while custom WoW maps are not, but that shouldn't stop anybody. There's no way Blizzard is going to go after hundreds of amateur map makers who aren't even making money from their maps... if anything, Blizzard would hire some of them! :lol:

So what is the biggest problem standing in the way of WoW modding becoming a more mainstream creative activity? What can be done to fix it? It'd be fun to see a WoW zone category on DeviantArt!

[Steff]

What do you think was the goal or the Idea behind Modcraft. Making WoW modding popular to create a community and so the posibillity to do bigger projects. So what to do:

1. Create a community. We did.
2. Document the stuff needs to be known. We did but community dont help much.
3. Find out more about the tech stuff and document in WoW dev wiki. We did but community dident help much.
4. Write tools that make it possible. We start but ... you know it.
5. Help people to get in and solve problems. Ill do every day.
5. Start projects and motivate people to join. ...... Same here.

So where it the problem. I think the people are. Not all. There are big exceptions... but. Look around at the resources that are here often made by the same people. And if someone else did something, most time its only one tutorial and that´s it.

You can´t build an active community without active people that will only build OWN server or stuff. Never finish it, never release stuff and just let it get lost on the harddrives if they lost motivation and left the szene.

I also was a member of an Ultima Online Server in the past. We had 63 Builders over 40 Scripters and tech people doing stuff without the need to stand behind them and punish them if not. Why this can´t be also here this way. And no it was technical not much more easyer . The problem seams to be the generation.  one till two years ago I had to search hores to to get some informatiosn obaut wow modding. Now there are docs created by us and people just dont read it. Its to much text the say... So that the other side and problem.

And if you think I am wrong, teach me the opposit.

And with you I don´t mean you directly but the community.

[Steff]

So now the constructiv part. How to make it populare. Show the people that it works. Creat ONE working running server. And thats what I try with Maruum. Get it running and online and then show it to other not modders, so perhaps they will find it cool and interesting and also wnat to start. And give them a place they can do own stuff without the need to start a server self. Thats the Idea and concept of Maruum.

[iindigo]

I think maybe it's a simple problem of not enough people becoming seriously involved. Think about it:

Out of everyone who finds out about WoW modding, only a small fraction will be interested. Out of that number, even a smaller fraction will seriously pursue modding.

Age is also a problem. Based on other communities I've seen (mmowned etc) most who are interested are young teenagers who have never had to do anything more technical than opening their start menu to use a computer. The result is that the few who are seriously interested feel like they've hit a brick wall when they once they learn how technical WoW modding is. The learning curve is extreme for those who aren't already technically knowledgeable.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Spoonfeeding everything to this group isn't going to help them, but anything less isn't going to be much help to them either. Perhaps something should be done to pull in older members?


As for contributing with tutorials, wiki editing, etc... I've personally done what I can, but because I am not an expert in any part of WoW modding I do not feel qualified to write tutorials and such. I imagine many other feel the same.

[Steff]

What we are missing here are tuts for beginners Exactly waht you said. How to setup modding environment. Use noggit. Perhaps as video. For thsi you need not big tech skills And i said dont fell hitted directly.

I only think that there are oneugh people out there who could but dont do anything.

And you are right. But you can reach a big mass only with a good presentation. Thats why I WANT to brign Maruum online. and then promote it all over the net. Videos iamges and you can have a look ingame.

[matija168]

What we are missing here are tuts for beginners Exactly waht you said. How to setup modding environment. Use noggit. Perhaps as video. For thsi you need not big tech skills And i said dont fell hitted directly.

I only think that there are oneugh people out there who could but dont do anything.

And you are right. But you can reach a big mass only with a good presentation. Thats why I WANT to brign Maruum online. and then promote it all over the net. Videos iamges and you can have a look ingame.

That.

Noggit, when you get famillar with it, is a very simple tool. However, it is really a pain for first-timers.

And the reason for other Blizz games for having a dveloped modding community is, I would say, Blizzard's active modding support, AKA Blizzard's modding tools. All we have for WoW are user created programs, with all the features being scattered in dozens of tools, imagine the power of WoW modding if all the tools Modcraft has would be combined into one unique do-it-all tool.

[iindigo]

Better tools would also help, but as discussed before, interested and capable developers with time are at a severe shortage.

Would writing a tools in a language that's easier to write and debug, like Python, speed up and simplify development? Seems like not having to care so much about things like memory management could help a lot. I have no idea what speed hit that would cause for programs like Noggit, though.

[Steff]

One tool for all will not rais the willing of creativ people to do more work. Ill work with the tools and its good as it is. Yes it could be much better but we are fare away form the point we where some month ago.

And Ill work on such a tool. It is planed but I dont know where the things that are going on in the back will lead to.

Map and DBC stuff work wll I think already now. But model stuff is a pain I think. There we whould need one good tool.

[matija168]

One tool for all will not rais the willing of creativ people to do more work. Ill work with the tools and its good as it is. Yes it could be much better but we are fare away form the point we where some month ago.

And Ill work on such a tool. It is planed but I dont know where the things that are going on in the back will lead to.

Map and DBC stuff work wll I think already now. But model stuff is a pain I think. There we whould need one good tool.

I will myself also work with the tools we have so far, but I can't say so for the many who have gave up on modding after seeing how complex things might look.

I am aware improving and combining tools takes away a lot of one's time and energy, and is complex as hell, but it is something that must be done, and I am sure that, with time, it will.

I am also pretty sure some of us would be willing to donate a sum of money to make it happen sooner, as I heard plenty saying so in the shoutbox. Perhaps a donation page and an overview on the collected money could be added on the index page, with a quick link to the progress section and implemented and planned features.

[iindigo]

I agree. Something like Cromon's SharpWoW, which eschews manual DBC editing in favor of a nice user interface for many things, is the direction WoW modding tools need to go. Unfortunately SharpWoW only runs on Windows and Cromon seems quite busy with his own life matters.

[Steff]

Yes he is busy and ill work together with him on the new editor. And yes will be .net so only windows. Perhaps someone could try mono compiling. We build on 4.5 but perhaps you ahve luck and we only use 2 functions in it. But not more about this now. We will release first stuff if the app framework is full working.

But an MMO is an complex thing and you will never reach a point where you can just start easy. You always have to learn the engine bounderys and must understand the DBC structures and how this all pins together.

I have now the idea for a beginners starting pack in mind. If someone will write tuts for it just PM me. I will build it up then and we can make it much easyer.

[Sina]

I think you named the main-reasons, why WoW-modding isn't as popular as other ones.
- no multi-tool (like developer ones)
- more complex than RTS games
- no good presentation yet
- no easy usage of done stuff

About the last point:
If you have an RTS-game like WC3 and you can create a map and play it. Even with friends, without big problems. Again and again.
The five minutes you spend in finding out, how the basics work, doesn't feel wasted. (actually they are somehow, because your first map is bullshit, but it doesn't matter as long as you learned something, and stay motivated)
For WoW-modding, I had to spend years. And after all, there was never played on one of my works.
It's just easier to just need a 4-player-rts-server on your pc (which is doing all by itself), than needing a 24/7-100-player-mmo-server (which have to be configured, etc, etc, etc, ETC!).

One big reason why I like the idea of Maruum.
As it is running, and I don't have to tell people to "just" download 20gb and configure before they can see my maps, there will be more motivation (:



So I think, getting Maruum "done", is one of the first good ways. To get people automatically got Wotlk3.3.5 on their pc and using it, so they don't have to "get in" to it every time, you want to show them something.
Second, because it's (in relation) hard to create a MMO, the start have to be even easier (programs, tutorials).



So... now I talked a lot, without doing anything (:
The problem is, one main reason, why I never made a tutorial, is, that I'm even happy, if the other tutorials are working for me (what they are only in a few times).
But, Steff, if we could find a weekend, it would be very cool to learn, how you are working and to make an "easy repack" with tutorial, to make it easier to join the modding-community (:

[Steff]

Sounds good. I will make a plan and post my idea here. Then we can perhaps jsut make a tutoriall ist and everyone can pic a part and do one. And also the beginning stuff needs to get documented.

[schlumpf]

Entry barrier too high.
Tools too bad.
No way to easily see changes.
No way to easily distribute.
A lot of horrible usability.
Community having an age average of 16.
Mostly dying game.
Documentation, thus tools and servers being three years behind.
A lot of stuff not documented at all. (i.e. WMOs), a lot of stiff bring wrong, incomplete.
Documentation is on a technical layer, not on end user level.

No way to fix this, except for official support for modding. And that needed to happen five years ago. Now, there is no way.

Sorry.

[Steff]

Thats your point